I hate Clouds - a personal perspective on why I think Clouds suck

Submitted ⁨⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago⁩ by ⁨loudwhisper@infosec.pub⁩ to ⁨technology@lemmy.world⁩

https://loudwhisper.me/blog/hating-clouds/

I hope this won’t be counted as some form of self-promotion, even though I am sharing a post from my own blog.

As a tech worker who works in a Cloud shop, I wanted to elaborate the many reasons why I find working with Clouds terrible, from multiple points of view.

I tried to organize my thoughts in a (relatively long) post, in which both technical aspects and political aspects (which are very related) are covered.

I am sure many people will have different perspectives, and this could be potentially also a nice prompt for a discussion.

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Toes@ani.social ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
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- loudwhisper@infosec.pub ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  How could I miss the opportunity to use this picture!
  
  It definitely felt like that at times.
  
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  - Toes@ani.social ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Haha, I couldn’t resist. Great post though.
    
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- SeeJayEmm@lemmy.procrastinati.org ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  I was really hoping this was going to be a rant about clouds in the sky.
  
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  - errer@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    As someone who burns with the faintest touch of stellar light, I love clouds in the sky.
    
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- dornad@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Image
  
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  - Toes@ani.social ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Haha that’s great. Took me a second to notice.
    
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conciselyverbose@sh.itjust.works ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
So the whole thing is well worth a read IMO, and addresses a lot of the issues I have with cloud as the solution for everything.

My main point here is that individuals and organizations that require all the flexibility that cloud services offer are a (tiny) minority. This means that for the majority of us, all the complexity necessary to provide this flexibility ends up being purely a complication or worse, a liability.

There are absolutely companies who need the scaling. But it’s a fucking lot of overhead if you don’t.

Let’s repeat it one more time: complexity hides and creates security issues.

This is similar to all the LLM code stuff. If you don’t actually fully understand what your code does, bad stuff happens.

This premise has the consequence that Cloud systems are a big puzzle. The pieces of the puzzle are the Cloud products. Engineers working with Cloud systems essentially need to understand the abstraction but not necessarily the underlying, ultimate working mechanism of what those abstractions do. For example, a cloud expert might know everything about the difference between NACLs and Security Groups, all the details about how to configure them, their limitations etc., but the main idea is that such expert doesn’t need to know anything below that (e.g., how the traffic is filtered).

Ultimately my perspective, and I appreciate it’s a very personal one, is that building and working with the Cloud makes me feel like a glorified application administrator. My job becomes researching how the Cloud solved the problem that I need to solve, and compose the solution in the way the Cloud provider imagined it should be solved, rather than solving the problem

I was going to bring up basically this point:

because vendor-lock is not something that has only to do with infrastructure. It has also to do with the skills of the engineers involved. Cloud knowledge, for the most part, is not portable. You are a wizard of IAM policies in GCP? Good job, this is completely useless if you go to Azure. Oh, you are a guru of VPCs and private endpoints? Well done, this is completely useless if you move to a different cloud.

But you covered it pretty well. Abstractions are great. Proprietary abstractions that are more focused on how they can bill you than real, useful, functional categories? Not so much.

Despite the efforts means something which is ironic: many companies which run on Cloud, at some point, will have one or more teams whose main purpose is understanding how they are spending money in the Cloud and to reduce those costs. If this sounds conflicting with the idea of reducing personnel, well, it is. The digital infrastructure of my organization is not that huge. Give or take 2000 compute instances (some very small). Something that 200 servers could easily provide. Cloud bills are more than $15 millions/year. I checked a server builder for example, and an absolute beast (something like 2x Xeon platinum processor, 200TB of NVME disks, 1TB of RAM etc.) would still stay comfortably under $250k. 100 servers this powerful will probably be a multiple of our computing power, and cost almost a third if we consider a lifetime of 3 years, which is very low. A more realistic estimation of 5 years leads to a saving of ~$50 millions over 5 years. Completely insane! This is of course if you want to buy hardware. Powerful servers rented run you for $500-1000/month. Assuming a cost of $1000/month, my company could rent more than 1000 powerful servers, and still save money compared to Cloud costs, leaving plenty for additional services such as networking, storage, premium support (remote hands) or actual engineers salary

So there’s a level of rent seeking behind all the software moving to subscriptions, and them wanting to lock you in just like their service providers are doing to them. But I have to think the massive costs of cloud junk also pay a role in stuff like a calendar charging double digit annual fees for something that takes very little storage and very little computation (and you of course can’t just buy software any more).

I have no words for multi-cloud. Even like a Facebook or YouTube scale site, are you really going to double (or more for some reason?) your storage costs (plus whatever intercommunication between the two), just in case the provider goes down for a couple hours (which is extremely rare, and you won’t be the only site impacted, so people won’t really blame you for.) Plus that architecture sounds like the shitshow to end all shitshows.

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- BearOfaTime@lemm.ee ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Agreed on it all.
  
  I think a big driver for cloud clients is bean counters - cloud is an expense, while having your own systems is capital investment.
  
  They’d rather have the waste of leasing too much compute than have to pay taxes on systems plus the cost of staff to run it.
  
  We won’t really see this get addressed until companies truly have to own the risks they take on (see all the hacks that happen on a daily basis because CIO won’t pay for the security that IT management is screaming to build).
  
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- loudwhisper@infosec.pub ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Thanks!
  
  But I have to think the massive costs of cloud junk also pay a role in stuff like a calendar charging double digit annual fees for something that takes very little storage and very little computation (and you of course can’t just buy software any more).
  
  Absolutely agree. I did not even think about this aspect, but I think you are absolutely spot on. Building something with huge costs is something that ultimately gets passed to the users in addition to the rent-seeking aspect.
  
  I have no words for multi-cloud.
  
  You and me both. I have to work with it and the reality is, there is nobody who actually understands the whole thing. The level of complexity (and fragility, I might add) of it all is astonishing. And all of this to mitigate some (honestly) low risk of downtime from the cloud provider. I have lobbied a little bit against at work, but ultimately it has become a marketing tool to sell to customers, so goodbye any hope of rational evaluation…
  
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  - Tja@programming.dev ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    It’s all shits and giggles until a network config takes down your cloud provider for 11 hours and you can’t even look at the logs. And multicloud is quite robust if done right, more so than a single cloud, if your setup is fragile someone is not doing their job right.
    
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Ledivin@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
I’m sorry, but this started like a fucking recipe article and I lost all interest. I don’t care about your life story, I clicked the link to read your opinions, and you spent the first several paragraphs avoiding them.

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- loudwhisper@infosec.pub ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Nothing to be sorry for. I didn’t write for you nor for any particular individual, and it’s fair if you are not interested in it. I also added a table of content at the beginning, so you can jump directly to the relevant section (Technical Side) skipping the (in my opinion needed) introduction completely, if you wish. Cheers
  
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- Brickardo@feddit.nl ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Tell me you don’t read often without telling me you don’t read often:
  
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- conciselyverbose@sh.itjust.works ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Two brief paragraphs of light nonsense on a blog post, then a quick summary of what the article will cover?
  
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gravitas_deficiency@sh.itjust.works ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
The cloud is just someone else’s computer

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- loudwhisper@infosec.pub ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  With a lot of stuff on top!
  
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greywolf0x1@lemmy.ml ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Great post, a quick nitpick if you don’t mind, introduce or use an abbreviation’s full words before using its abbreviated form

Granted that the article is geared towards sysadmins and cloud developers, others who may want to read it may have a hard time doing so. As an example, reading through the first technical point, I saw “IAMs” and “Network ACL”, I don’t understand what those abbrs mean

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- loudwhisper@infosec.pub ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Thanks, that is a very good observation! I will try to sneak an edit later today where I can add some appendix about acronyms and abbreviations.
  
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jg1i@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
I hate websites with low contrast text.

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- loudwhisper@infosec.pub ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  How do you get this? Anything that tries to force a light mode?
  
  This is how the site is supposed to look like (there is no light/dark theme selection):
  
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  - ilmagico@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    I was reading the site on Android, and it looked dark, but after seeing this comment, I tried disabling Android system wide dark mode, and sure enough it became white like in the screenshot! For the record, I tied with both Firefox and a Chromium-based browser.
    
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ctkatz@lemmy.ml ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
there are too many points of failure for me to ever be comfortable using the cloud as a primary storage option.

i’ve always maintained this opinion when “the cloud” started being touted as being the future. and yet more corporations (including mine) are reliant on it. i mean sure, i can log in on my home computer and have some access to stuff as though i were physically at the office but that convenience ain’t worth the headache if the main storage site crashes.

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- Tja@programming.dev ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  If the storage “crashes” it doesn’t matter if it’s in the cloud or on-prem.
  
  With the cloud you get two substantial advantages:
  
  the storage is built so it doesn’t break so easily. I trust AWS engineers more than Mike, no matter how cool Mike is to hang out with. Additionally, if the storage breaks while Mike is on vacation we’re screwed, with the cloud you get a whole team 24/7 on it.
  
  you can prevent data loss with backups or multi-region setups with a few clicks/terraform lines. Try telling the PO that you need to rent datacenter space in Helsinki and Singapore for redundancy…
  
  Of course all this costs big bucks, but technically it’s superior, easier and less risky.
  
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  - corsicanguppy@lemmy.ca ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    
    trust AWS engineers more than Mike, no matter how cool Mike is
    
    AWS engineers’ first responsibility is to shareholders
    
    Mike’s responsibility is to your same boss.
    
    They are not the same.
    
    Bonus: you can see Mike’s certs are real.
    
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  - nexusband@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    
    the storage is built so it doesn’t break so easily. I trust AWS engineers more than Mike, no matter how cool Mike is to hang out with. Additionally, if the storage breaks while Mike is on vacation we’re screwed, with the cloud you get a whole team 24/7 on it.
    
    That’s easily mitigated just following established standards. Redundancy is cheaper than anything else in the aftermath and documentation can be done easy with automation.
    
    you can prevent data loss with backups or multi-region setups with a few clicks/terraform lines. Try telling the PO that you need to rent datacenter space in Helsinki and Singapore for redundancy…
    
    You don’t, you rent rack space in a location far enough away but close enough to get the data in a few hours.
    
    It’s neither superior, easier or less risky, it’s just a shift in responsibility. And in most cases, it’s so expensive that a second or third on site engineer is payed for.
    
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- figjam@midwest.social ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  
  there are too many points of failure for me to ever be comfortable using the cloud as a primary storage option.
  
  If everything that you run is local as in the same physical location and there is no requirement for external or internet access then sure. Not everyone has that luxury. Otherwise, There are the same number of points of failure in a non-cloud configuration. You just feel more comfortable with those because you have direct hands on control.
  
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  - corsicanguppy@lemmy.ca ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    
    . You just feel more comfortable with those because you have direct hands on control.
    
    You write “actually following best practice instead of faking it and lying” funny.
    
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- IphtashuFitz@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Having done everything from building my own servers 30 years ago to managing hundreds of servers in data centers to now managing hundreds of instances and other services in AWS, I’ll gladly stick with AWS. The hardware management alone makes it well worth the overhead.
  
  25 or so years ago I had to troubleshoot a hardware issue in a SCSI-based server with 6 hard drives in it. A drive appeared to be failing so I replaced it and immediately another drive failed, then another, and so on. After almost a full day of troubleshooting later and we realized the power supply was actually the culprit and could no longer provide sufficient power to the full set of hard drives.
  
  20 years ago while managing 700+ servers in a datacenter we had to manage a recall of about 400 of them thanks to the Capacitor plague that caused a handful of our servers to literally burst into flames.
  
  Hardware failures like the above and dozens of others were mitigated in most cases thanks to redundancies in the software we wrote. But dealing with hardware failures and the resulting software recovery was a real PITA.
  
  With AWS I may occasionally have a Linux instance lock up due to a hardware failure but it’s usually fairly easy to reboot the instance and have it migrate to new hardware. It’s also trivial to migrate a server to run on more (or less) number of CPU’s, RAM, etc. with only a couple of minutes of downtime.
  
  The more advanced services AWS offers like object storage, queues, databases, etc. are even more resilient. We occasionally get notified that a replica for one of these services had failed or was determined to be on hardware that was failing, and it was automatically replaced with a new replica.
  
  I’d much rather work this way than the way I did 20+ years ago.
  
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  - loudwhisper@infosec.pub ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Why not outsourcing just the hardware then? Dedicated servers and Kubernetes slapped on them. Hardware failure mitigated for the most part, and the full effort goes into making the cluster as resilient as possible, for 1/5 of the cost of AWS. If machines burn, it’s not your problem (you can have them spread over multiple sites, DCs, rooms, racks) anymore.
    
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Lettuceeatlettuce@lemmy.ml ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Very good read. I totally agree with your sentiment that more and more, “engineering” is becoming just gluing together and managing cloud services and features.

My job as a sys admin has become the same. It’s not about actually understanding the technology at a deep level and troubleshooting problems, it’s about learning specific applets and features to click on and running down daily and weekly checklists.

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- loudwhisper@infosec.pub ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  I feel you very much. Security work is also somewhat similar.
  
  I think this takes a way basically the component that made it interesting, understanding what you are doing to the point that you can build stuff.
  
  it’s about learning specific applets and features to click on and running down daily and weekly checklists.
  
  Well said.
  
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- Tja@programming.dev ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  And that’s a good thing, IMHO. As an architect I don’t want to rely on some single genius knowing secret incantations or anything like that.
  
  Boring, tried and true services, repeatedly put together and if the organization allows the time for it, with excessive documentation.
  
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  - Lettuceeatlettuce@lemmy.ml ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Straw man. I’m encountering sys admins and systems “engineers” who don’t know how to spec out a server, don’t understand how certificates work, don’t understand basic IP addressing principles, don’t understand basic networking topology.
    
    They just know how to click a list of specific buttons in a GUI for one specific Corpo vendor.
    
    Maybe that is fine for a Jr. Admin just starting out, but it isn’t what you want for the folks in charge of building, upgrading, and maintaining your company’s infrastructure.
    
    There’s nothing wrong with making interfaces simpler and easier to understand. And there’s nothing wrong with building simplified abstractions on top of your systems to gain efficiency. But this should not be done at the cost of actual deep understanding and functionality.
    
    The people you call when things go badly wrong will always be the folks that have that deep understanding and competency. It already has started hitting the developer community in the last few years. The Jr. Devs that did a 3 month boot camp where they learned nothing but how to parrot code and slap APIs together, are getting laid off and cannot find work.
    
    The devs that went to school for Comp Sci, that have years of real world experience, and actually understand the theory and the nuts and bolts of the underlying tech, they are still largely employed and have little trouble finding work.
    
    I think the same will happen soon in the IT world. Deep knowledge and years of dirty, greasy hands will always be desirable over a parrot that only knows how to click GUI buttons in a specific order.
    
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  - conciselyverbose@sh.itjust.works ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    No one’s talking about secret incantations.
    
    They’re talking about knowing how your applications actually work, so you’re not tied to the whims of a third party.
    
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  - loudwhisper@infosec.pub ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Is that what you get with Cloud? Because there are still a million ways to shoot yourself in the foot. The main difference is that the single genius doesn’t need to implement things him/herself, but decisions still need to be taken and fragile setups can still be built.
    
    Imagine an ec2 instance in a satellite account performing some business critical function with an instance role, whose custom IAM policy allows to do it in another account. Clouds are not giving you good engineering, they are giving you premade building blocks, you can absolutely still make a mess with those. Even more, the complexity and the immense portfolio of features can allow very creative ways to build very low-quality systems.
    
    I think you can have good, boring, simple systems built by engineers. With or without Cloud services.
    
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- rottingleaf@lemmy.zip ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  
  “engineering” is becoming just gluing together and managing cloud services and features.
  
  Temporarily becoming.
  
  Just like China had some social and cultural changes since being closed and till the Opium wars.
  
  Systems are built around people and limited by what a human can conceive and make work. We don’t evolve that fast.
  
  Also dependency on big centers has led to catastrophes in the past and will lead to those again.
  
  It will all crash with a huge bang.
  
  I’m confident of this, anyone who wants can call me a luddite.
  
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  - Lettuceeatlettuce@lemmy.ml ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Let’s hope that people will start to favor on-prem solutions and smaller independent cloud providers vs the massive trillion dollar corpo clouds that control so much now.
    
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iso@lemy.lol ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Yes, I hate cloud too. Now tell this to my company, which received about 100k dollar promotion from Azure and Google Cloud :)

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- loudwhisper@infosec.pub ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  What do you mean by “promotion”? A discount? Credits to get started?
  
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  - iso@lemy.lol ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Yeah credits makes more sense 👍
    
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Jackhammer_Joe@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
I’m immensely disappointed!

Not kidding: when I first saw the post title, I was fully convinced that I’ll read the post of a crazy person, rambling about (rain) clouds.

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- loudwhisper@infosec.pub ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  I am sorry! As an amateur landscape photographer I actually like very much those clouds. There are a few r-word posts about people hating those clouds though, but I checked and they are nowhere near as long as you would expect a proper rant to be
  
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- Jakdracula@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Yup, me too!
  
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TechNerdWizard42@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Anything that requires a fancy buzzword is usually stupid but a good way to make money for someone. The “cloud” has always existed as offsite hosting. Off-site shared servers, VPSs, whatever. It’s no different than running CPanel on an LAMP VPS in 2003.

But calling it “the cloud” gave all the business majors a hard on and then the accounts department realized they could manipulate share pricing by reducing the amount of assets a company holds. It’s the same stupid reason many companies don’t own their corporate headquarters or remote centers. They lease the, even if from themselves through another holding. It looks better on paper so the share price goes up. It’s all mind boggling stupid.

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- MSids@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  The cloud today significantly different than the 2003 cpanel LAMP server. It’s a whole new landscape. Complex, highly-available architectures that cannot be replicated in an on-prem environment are easily built from code in minutes on AWS.
  
  Those capabilities come with a steep learning curve on how to operate them in a secure and effective manor, but that’s always going to be the case in this industry. The people that can grow and learn will.
  
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  - TechNerdWizard42@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    I’m fully aware of the few buzzword and marketing pitches that cloud hosting uses. I’m forced to use both GCP and AWS for different contracts and I’m good at it.
    
    The real truth is that most websites and internet services do not need scale. They do not need all this crap. A Pentium 3 could host all the data for most of these businesses and services. You don’t need serverless lambda functions to handle an api when an actual endpoint does the same thing to pull some info. The few companies that need such distributed computing and power, will need a big on-site or off-site implementation. It makes sense for that sometimes. But most times, it doesn’t even then. You’re just outsourcing your engineering and paying a premium.
    
    I have seen so many startups spin up cloud accounts costing thousands of dollars a month when they’re in “private beta stealth”. Literally a $500 laptop could host all of their services just as quickly with no monthly fee. But as long as the VCs are paying, just flush that cash down.
    
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boatsnhos931@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
How do u feel about cotton candy

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- Toes@ani.social ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Pink or Blue?
  
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  - boatsnhos931@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Pink of course
    
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Broken@lemmy.ml ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Thanks for sharing. Great read and points.

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GoOnASteamTrain@lemmy.ml ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
addons.mozilla.org/en-US/…/cloud-2-butt-plus/

This add-on brings me joy and is related. :)

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- flambonkscious@sh.itjust.works ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  It’s funny that the sheer idea or frequency of the word is distasteful enough to build this.
  
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- loudwhisper@infosec.pub ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  This post must be fun with that one… 150+ instances in various contexts of “cloud”.
  
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  - GoOnASteamTrain@lemmy.ml ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Thank you for that… going back and reading again with this was very, very funny
    
    In this case it makes sense to have a short-term quick-and-dirty Butt deployment.
    
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- vrighter@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  i have that installed on my work pc. Hasn’t bit me in the ass yet. I work in a datacenter
  
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RecallMadness@lemmy.nz ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
I used to love ‘the cloud’. Rather, a specific slice of it.

I worked almost exclusively on AppEngine, it was simple. You uploaded a zip of your code to appengine and it ran it at near infinite scale. They gave you a queue, a database, a volatile cache, and some other gizmos. It was so simple you’d struggle to fuck it up really.

It was easy, it was simple, and it worked for my clients who had 10 DAU, and my clients who had 5 DAU. Costs scaled nearly linearly, and for my hobby projects that had 0 DAU, the costs were comparable.

Then something happened and it slowly became complicated. The rest of the GCP cloud crept in and after spending a term with a client who didn’t use “the cloud” I came back to it and had to relearn nearly everything.

Pretty much all of the companies I’ve worked for could be run on early AppEngine. Nobody has needed anything more than it, and I’m confident the only reason they had more was because tech is like water. You need to put it in a bucket or it goes everywhere.

Give me my AppEngine back.

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Kolanaki@yiffit.net ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
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GBU_28@lemm.ee ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Yep. My first move is to ask "could this just live in an ec2 box? Do we really need any of aws’ marketed custom options?

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- loudwhisper@infosec.pub ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  But then I would ask, what’s the point of paying 10-20x per computing unit at that point? If you just use ec2 instance, all AWS offers you is an API to manage them, is it worth the premium? Besides, you will still need to mess with a lot of other services (VPCs, SGs, etc.) anyways.
  
  What’s the selling point in your opinion?
  
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  - GBU_28@lemm.ee ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Well I would have more questions, like why AWS at all.
    
    But for some, cognito auth management is important, to align with other product goals.
    
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