Comment on Shell Is Immediately Closing All Of Its California Hydrogen Stations | The oil giant is one of the big players in hydrogen globally, but even it can't make its operations work here.

• Tattorack@lemmy.world ⁨9⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  And where are you gonna get the hydrogen from? You have any idea how power inefficient electrolysis is!?

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  • SupraMario@lemmy.world ⁨9⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    www.airproducts.com/…/hydrogen-onsite-generators

    Uhh there are tons of companies making these now. You can literally drop one of these in the middle of nowhere running off solar, pulling hydrogen from the atmosphere.

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    • ExLisper@linux.community ⁨9⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      running off solar

      Because solar is free?

      Guys, we can stop trying to solve climate change, we already have free energy!

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      • SupraMario@lemmy.world ⁨9⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        Are…you suggesting solar isn’t free energy?

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  • daqqad@lemmy.world ⁨9⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Yes. Do you have any idea how much energy we’re wasting because nuclear power plants produce way more than we need because they can’t scale easily or that most green energy generation is at the time people don’t actually need it? Hydrogen is a prefect storage solution for that power.

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    • jabjoe@feddit.uk ⁨9⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      It is somewhere to put energy, when you filled the efficient storage. But that doesn’t make it good for transport.

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• SkyNTP@lemmy.ml ⁨9⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  You’re mostly right. But I don’t agree on the last part. Hydrogen production can’t be done in your backyard. But electricity can (and I forgive you if have no backyard, these next few points may be less relevant if that is the case).

  Unlike hydrogen, electricity production is affordable, scalable, and ubiquitous. And that small detail changes the benefits dramatically.

  • The idea of being your own gas station, from the grid, or from your own solar, is really compelling. No one likes being at the mercy of fluctuating energy prices, or, as in this case, unreliable and scarce availability of fuel.
  • Many people don’t like going to gas stations (e.g. women and personal safety). Totally doable outside of road trips.
  • If you are generating your own electricity you will need batteries anyway. Might as well put wheels on them: two birds one stone.
  • Even if you don’t generate your own power, you still want power security during outage. Since the battery is on wheels, you can drive it to a place that does have power to top up.

  Again, I can see that these are less compelling points if you live in a super dense area and utilities and supply chain are really dependable. But this is hardly everywhere.

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  • daqqad@lemmy.world ⁨9⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Most people in the world cannot put solar panels on their roof today. Even if you exclude all the places people don’t own cars I still think my statement will be true.

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    • laurelraven@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨9⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Whether that’s true or not, it doesn’t invalidate their points

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      • daqqad@lemmy.world ⁨9⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        Yes it does. If you cannot generate electricity at home, all those points are moot.

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  • frezik@midwest.social ⁨9⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Hydrogen production can’t be done in your backyard

    I can put two electrodes in salt water and run it off an old power brick and generate hydrogen. It’s not efficient, industrial hydrogen isn’t primarily made that way (it mainly comes from oil instead), and hydrogen has a list of other problems, but it can be done.

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    • Patch@feddit.uk ⁨9⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      The trick isn’t making hydrogen, it’s capturing it, refining it (so that it isn’t mixed with a tonne of air), and compressing it into a pressurised storage tank for later use.

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      • frezik@midwest.social ⁨9⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        None of that is magic, or even especially expensive. You can do it with stuff available off the shelf to a hobbyist. It’d be a silly way to run cars, but you can do it.

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  • FlyingSquid@lemmy.world ⁨9⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Many people don’t like going to gas stations

    Honestly, and I don’t want to sound selfish here, but never having to get out at a gas station in the middle of winter again is the biggest draw of an EV for me. Especially since I rarely drive more than about 60 miles.

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  • SupraMario@lemmy.world ⁨9⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    You… actually can.

    www.airproducts.com/…/hydrogen-onsite-generators

    Lots of companies make stations like these. Granted they’re not cheap.

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• jaemo@sh.itjust.works ⁨9⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Yes! A clean platform that needs METRIC GIGATONS of carbon positive infrastructure to set up and maintain. That is why I call shenanigans on your zero harmful emissions claim.

  VS

  We already have wires, and batteries are more than good enough for a vast swath of the everyday commuting public.

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  • daqqad@lemmy.world ⁨9⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Hydrogen can be generated any time. Like when nuclear or solar or wind energy is otherwise going to waste. We don’t have and likely won’t have batteries that could replace it for decades.

    Modern batteries are absolute shit and definitely not good enough. I think a good indication that batteries are anywhere near useful will be when you can fly on battery power across the Atlantic.

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    • laurelraven@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨9⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Wait, so … They’re nowhere near useful when we can already use them for daily commuting easily because of some arbitrary goalpost for an unrelated transportation method? How does that even make sense?

      Infrastructure for hydrogen fueling requires production facilities, trucks to transport, and stations set up, to even start moving one vehicle let alone taking over any percentage of commuter traffic of any significance. EV fueling infrastructure requires… Pretty much the same grid we already have, at least as a functional baseline (yes, it needs improvements, but we’re not switching overnight so we have the time we need to make those changes; meanwhile, it’s already functional)

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      • daqqad@lemmy.world ⁨9⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        It isn’t arbitrary. Just a simplified example of stored energy to weight ratio.

        Infra would show up if people didn’t jump on wrong tech just like electric charging infra is starting to show up.

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    • frezik@midwest.social ⁨9⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      We don’t have and likely won’t have batteries that could replace it for decades.

      Wrong. There are tons of options for grid storage batteries that are gearing up for mass production right now.

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    • jaemo@sh.itjust.works ⁨9⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Ok chief, you know best. Better sit out buying a vehicle until the dust settles then I guess.

      Meanwhile, I’ll be charging my ‘not good enough’ EV and trying not to let the fact that it doesn’t measure up to your standards weigh to heavily on me.

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      • daqqad@lemmy.world ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        I already have an EV and I still think batteries in them are shit. These are not mutually exclusive.

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  • SupraMario@lemmy.world ⁨9⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    They make solar stations that will pull hydrogen right from the atmosphere. What carbon are you talking about…and you do realize the same power that would be used to make hydrogen in your example would also be charging batteries.

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    • jabjoe@feddit.uk ⁨9⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      That is a waste of solar. It’s more efficient to put in batteries then kinetic. If there is no more batteries to put it in, you transmit the power over wires.

      With hydrogen it’s wasteful to create from electricity, then wasteful to turn into kinetic. Its wasteful to store as it’s the smallest atom so escapes easily, it’s low density so needs compressing. Then, to move it, you have to move storage around instead of just transmit over wires.

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      • nekusoul@lemmy.nekusoul.de ⁨9⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        Exactly. And just to be clear, because it’s annoying me every time people gloss over this, it’s not just some percentage points lost in the conversion of energy, it’s actually ~75% of the energy that goes to waste, from energy production to the final motion of the wheels. EVs on the other hand only waste ~25% of energy. Even with the wishful thinking that the hydrogen can just be created in times of energy overproduction, you can’t beat a factor of 3.

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      • SupraMario@lemmy.world ⁨9⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        A…waste of solar…internal ICE hydrogen motors is what these would be used for not fuel cell hydrogen.

        How are you wasting solar? Lol this makes no sense. These can be stood up anywhere, you cannot use these as super chargers for batteries…

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    • wewbull@feddit.uk ⁨9⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Hydrogen isn’t in the atmosphere. It’s 20.9% oxygen, 70% nitrogen and some trace other gases, none of which are hydrogen.

      Hydrogen is produced either by splitting water (the H in H²O) or splitting hydrocarbons like Methane which produces CO² (the carbon part bonding with oxygen from the atmosphere, making that stuff we’re trying to cut back on).

      That second method is why the fossil fuels companies are so keen on it. Hydrogen can be a repacked form of natural gas.

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      • SupraMario@lemmy.world ⁨9⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        Yes totally forgot how there is no water in our atmosphere…forgot the globe just has water in a few places and humidity doesn’t exist…

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• frezik@midwest.social ⁨9⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Hydrogen is better for cars VS batteries in every meaningful way in 2024.

  Lol, no.

  severely underdeveloped technology of batteries we have today.

  Lol, no.

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  • JasonDJ@lemmy.zip ⁨9⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Hydrogen is a great way of storing and transporting energy.

    If we could find more efficient ways of manufacturing hydrogen, it may be very worthwhile as a storage technology for power plants when there is a surplus of energy.

    Or for powering equipment that needs a ton of energy but can’t be tied to the grid…freight ships come to mind.

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• wizardbeard@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨9⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Wait what? How in the fuck could an HOA prevent you from charging your car or installing a charger inside your space? The charger lives inside your garage, so it doesn’t effect curbside appearance and isn’t within what they can control.

  At absolute worst, if you have no garage and street parking, wouldn’t you just be running the cord over to your vehicle? Non-commercial charging stations aren’t normally weather proof, so that wouldn’t be outside, and again, none of their business. If they have an issue with an extension cord running across your lawn, or a cable slightly larger than a hose, then they’d have to make sane rules about how long it can be left out, like not just leaving it plugged in for a whole weekend straight. Otherwise they’re making it against the rules for people to use corded yard equipment or use a hose.

  I might be missing something here, but I don’t see any way an HOA could do anything against it.

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  • daqqad@lemmy.world ⁨9⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    No offense, but your response means you’re either the luckiest person in the world and live in a utopian HOA or much more realistically have zero experience with the stupid fucking cancer that is currently infesting more and more properties.

    It took me years of paying lawyers and dealing with some of the stupidest and most stubborn people on the planet to try to install a charger near my spot in a shared garage. At my expense and with all requirements met, it was still easier to move than convince those fucking assholes that we’re in 2020 and cars use electricity.

    No HOA on this planet will let you just run a cord even if you don’t consider that this would likely restrict you to level one charging and expose you to power theft.

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• june@lemmy.world ⁨9⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Sure. All that’s great.

  But I’m talking about infrastructure, not technology.

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  • daqqad@lemmy.world ⁨9⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Infra is result of people jumping on wrong tech. Batteries don’t belong in cars in their current state of development.

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• Kecessa@sh.itjust.works ⁨9⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Instead you rely on Shell to provide hydrogen to you when there’s no pre-existing infrastructure to deliver it and… Oh, looks like they decided to put an end to it, have fun with your brick on wheels 🤷

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  • hightime@lemmy.world ⁨9⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Instead you rely on Shell

    that’s the whole point tho, for them to sell you special fuel, that you can’t get yourself, like you could with solar panels. this is more serious threat for fleets of trucks, those companies are already building their solar farms to charge their trucks. that’s somewhat catastrophic for companies selling fuel nowadays. of-course they’ll push their magic fuel solution, forcefully. who do you think pays the hydrogen shilling campaigns?

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  • daqqad@lemmy.world ⁨9⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Shell is one of many companies providing hydrogen fuel stations. Infra may not be where it should be, but I blame that on all the people who jumped on battery powered cars at a time battery tech is years of not decades away from being good in vehicles.

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    • laurelraven@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨9⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      I’m genuinely curious why you think battery tech is decades away from being good in vehicles when it’s working very effectively in vehicles right now and over the last decade. In what way are they ineffective currently when they can have 250+ miles of range now when most people don’t put that many miles on their car in a day? And at least for the people who have the option to put a charging station in their home (which is not at all cost prohibitive), refueling is a matter of plugging it in when you get home which takes like fifteen seconds rather than ten to twenty minutes (or more) to stop somewhere along the way? (This is assuming, of course, that there is a station along the way, which likely isn’t the case at least right now for hydrogen)

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      • daqqad@lemmy.world ⁨9⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        You keep bringing infra into conversation when I already said it is simply a result of people jumping on wrong tech too early.

        Yes, batteries sort of work for some people. I’m one of those people. I still say they are shit because they are only useful in very specific cases like low mileage city driving for people lucky enough to live in SFH with solar panels on the roof. Most people cannot charge at home.

        For most people hydrogen is a better choice. I would actually love a hybrid with a small battery for 50 miles or so I can charge at home and hydrogen for 600 mile range.

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    • frezik@midwest.social ⁨9⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Green hydrogen–where it’s produced entirely using renewable resources–currently costs at least twice as much as producing it from hydrocarbons. Depending on the details, it can be seven times as much. Pink hydrogen–water electrolysis powered by nuclear–is barely much better.

      The vast majority of production comes from hydrocarbons. Most of it currently goes to the agricultural industry for making nitrate fertilizer.

      This is entirely the oil industry trying to open up a new market before it loses its current one.

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      • daqqad@lemmy.world ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        I get it, but cost is irrelevant if it is produced using green power that would otherwise be wasted anyway from overproduction.

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• Ejh3k@lemmy.world ⁨9⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Not to mention all the ecological damage mining for battery components does. I’m with you, hydrogen is the way to go

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  • Viper_NZ@lemmy.nz ⁨9⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    300kg of battery -> environmental catastrophe

    The other 1,500kg of car? Made of unicorn kisses and butterfly dreams.

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    • ExLisper@linux.community ⁨9⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Also, hydrogen grows on trees apparently.

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  • wewbull@feddit.uk ⁨9⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    1. No mined precious metals in hydrogen fuel cells, no… None at all.
    2. You know what all fuel cells vehicles also have in them? Batteries, because the fuel cells changes them and the batteries drive the motors.

    Yes, the batteries are smaller, but you also need the fuel cells catalyst. It’s not a clear win for the HFC car.

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  • SeaJ@lemm.ee ⁨9⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    A huge portion of our battery materials come from the Atacama Desert. There is no life at all in a lot of it.

    You do know that we get most of our hydrogen from burning fossil fuels, right?

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  • Nudding@lemmy.world ⁨9⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Unfortunately they’re both death sentences. It’s either public transport or climate apocalypse.

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    • Ejh3k@lemmy.world ⁨9⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      I am well aware we are doomed.

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