If you aren’t anti-religious-fascism you aren’t e civilized person.
If you aren’t anti-oppression or anti-apartheid you aren’t progressive
fosforus@sopuli.xyz 7 months ago
RichCaffeineFlavor@lemmy.world 7 months ago
And that’s why we need to let the fascist religious ethnostate commit genocide
fosforus@sopuli.xyz 7 months ago
And that’s why we need to let the fascist religious ethnostate commit genocide
No, you’re confused. I’m against Hamas committing a genocide.
timewarp@lemmy.world 7 months ago
Do you really consider them progressives though and not just violent anarchist? Progressive to me means forward-thinking. If you think it is a good idea for future generations to destroy civilization and attack people then you’re not a progressive to me.
Phanlix@lemmy.world 7 months ago
Violent anarchists are Libertarians, whom literally state their mission is to remove all government limitations at all costs.
How Libertarians avoid the anarchist label is beyond me. They’re like weird corporate anarchists, compared to the actual anarchy movement.
WheeGeetheCat@sh.itjust.works 7 months ago
Ah yes, the nuanced thinking of a 5 year old - everything is black and white and everyone who doesn’t agree w me 100% is evil
Thief_of_Crows@sh.itjust.works 7 months ago
Do you know what genocide is? It’s pretty much the most black and white issue there could possibly be. People who disagree with me on this ARE evil. There is actually such a thing as truth.
Ferrous@lemmy.dbzer0.com 7 months ago
If it’s so black and white, then why are there numerous international councils, courts, and meetings where accusations of genocide are fiercely deliberated?
YeetPics@mander.xyz 7 months ago
Ironically the same mindset held by hamas and israel.
spiderplant@lemm.ee 7 months ago
I mean if you think apartheid south Africa, Jim crow laws and indiscriminate killing of second class citizens are issues deserving of nuanced debate you need to take a look at yourself.
RichCaffeineFlavor@lemmy.world 7 months ago
And we know what you do with 5 year olds who don’t agree with you (you murder them by the tens of thousands)
Jezebelley@lemmy.zip 7 months ago
[deleted]spiderplant@lemm.ee 7 months ago
Ah yes the choice between democracy (fascism lite) and fascism.
It’d be nice if Americans finally overthrew their system or just voted for other parties/independents.
Also not everyone here is from the US btw.
FaeDrifter@midwest.social 7 months ago
Democracy is demonstrably far less oppressive than fascism.
If you are actually anti-opression, the choice for Democracy is a no-brainer.
spiderplant@lemm.ee 7 months ago
My point is that the incumbent party and the opposition are both anti democracy and authoritarian compared to the rest of the world.
Look at the police brutality against peaceful activists in the capitol last night and tell me if that was China that wouldn’t be used by the American media to tell Americans how authoritarian China is.
This is happening under the democrats, the alleged protectors of democracy. Last time I checked freedom of speech was a democratic ideal in America and the right to protest was a human right.
DragonTypeWyvern@literature.cafe 7 months ago
Lol, yet.
Fascist nations aren’t exactly known for not invading weak nations with excess money.
spiderplant@lemm.ee 7 months ago
Swap excess money for excess natural resources and you’ve got the US
Thief_of_Crows@sh.itjust.works 7 months ago
This is an incredibly stupid thing to say when the current president is supporting genocide.
Jezebelley@lemmy.zip 7 months ago
[deleted]Thief_of_Crows@sh.itjust.works 7 months ago
I have skin in the game, because if America aids in a genocide, I as an American am partially responsible. I’m okay with being arrested, or even a second coup attempt by trump, if it means preventing a genocide.
FaeDrifter@midwest.social 7 months ago
Sure, but who is the “oppressor” and who is the “oppressed” can flip on a dime based on context.
A lot of oppressed people eventually find themselves to be the oppressor.
If you take a hard stance joining any side, you are at some point siding with an oppressor.
I don’t need to describe how horrific and oppressive Nazi Germany and the Holocaust was. But you take a hard stance siding with the Jewish people, you are siding with the oppressor in the Israel-Palestine conflict.
I don’t need to describe how horrific the situation in Gaza is, but if you take a hard stance siding with Palestine and Hamas executes a bunch of festival goers, you’re siding with the oppressor.
The only way to be anti-opression (and according to you, a real progressive), is to not take sides but take every situation as it is and support the best possible outcome for everyone.
spiderplant@lemm.ee 7 months ago
Israel doesn’t represent every Jew around the world.
Yes I support the Warsaw uprising.
Yes I support the dismantlement of apartheid states.
These are not conflicting stances.
If the oppressed become an oppressor my stance can change on them. Not taking the side of the oppressed while they are being oppressed is cowardly in indirectly supports the status quo/the oppressor.
steltek@lemm.ee 7 months ago
I must have missed history class where the Warsaw Uprising attacked a peace festival.
Being oppressed is not a license to become a monster yourself. I refuse to condone cold blooded revenge (both Hamas and IDF).
Karyoplasma@discuss.tchncs.de 7 months ago
That the festival was for peace in Gaza is an onboarding lie spread by the IDF. The festival was simply in celebration of the Jewish holiday of Sukkot. The motto was “friends, love and infinite freedom”, so just about a regular rave.
Sadly mandatory: This doesn’t make it okay to slaughter and abduct the attendees.
spiderplant@lemm.ee 7 months ago
Alright what about warcrimes committed by resistance fighters and the allied forced during ww2?
If you support those groups even though they have done bad shit then you’re a hypocrite and you should try and understand why you consider them differently.
FaeDrifter@midwest.social 7 months ago
Interesting, so do you support the oppression of women in the US, or are you against the oppression of women?
Thief_of_Crows@sh.itjust.works 7 months ago
Whatever Palestine does to free themselves from oppression is justified. Israel has never been oppressed by Palestine.
FaeDrifter@midwest.social 7 months ago
“it’s not oppression when my side does it” okay fascist
Thief_of_Crows@sh.itjust.works 7 months ago
If the Jews had had a group similar to Hamas during the Holocaust, any rational person would say that’s a good thing, as it might have lessened the horrors the Nazis could put them through. So yes, if the victims of a genocide retaliate against the perpetrators of it, that is good. Learn critical thinking skills please.
Zehzin@lemmy.world 7 months ago
It’s the kind of progressive that only counts things that affect you personally
Enkrod@feddit.de 7 months ago
Yeah well, one can be anti-oppression and anti-apartheid as well as anti-terror, anti-killing-civilians, anti-bombing-hospitals, anti-using-civilians-as-shields, anti-hostage-taking and anti-warcrimes.
The israeli Government is not the only one with blood on their hands and while nothing can excuse what the IDF is doing, nothing can excuse what HAMAS is doing too.
Both sides fucking suck, the only difference I can see is that HAMAS is bad for Israelis and Palestinians moreso than the Israeli Government is for Israelis.
piexil@lemmy.world 7 months ago
You literally listed off everything Israel is doing. Good job.
Israel’s killed over 11k civilians since Oct 7th.
Israel’s bombed over 20 hospitals.
Israel refused to take their hostages back even when Hamas offered them in exchange for the Palestinians hostages Israel has. Then bombed the locations they know hostages were at.
Tavarin@lemmy.ca 7 months ago
Hamas is using hospitals as staging grounds to fire rockets at Israel, over 9,500 rockets so far since Oct 7th.
The hostage exchange was for a ceasefire that Hamas wanted so they could regroup and start attacking Israel from stronger positions. And they only offered 15 of the 200+ hostages. It was fucking bullshit, and Israel was right to reject it.
ronalicious@lemmy.world 7 months ago
nothing really found in the hospitals yet - apnews.com/…/israel-hamas-war-news-11-16-2023-6c7…
yagurlreese@lemmy.world 7 months ago
yea exactly I’m sick of all this whataboutism about Hamas. Hamas is the sole response to the atrocities that the idf has started. they hold all the power in this situation, they have killed many many many more people then Hamas ever could. They have also committed and are committing insane like Nazi level war crimes and all we get is… okay but Hamas bad.
also lets not forget… most Palestinians didn’t even want Hamas. they havent had an actiall election in almost two decades. Because it’s literally not safe enough because the idf keeps bombing them.
stop all the back and forth finger pointing, America could pull funding from isreal, instead of this E fleas posturing. If isreal wanted peace then we could hve peace but there will never be peace until the idf stops bombing refugee camps and hospitals lol.
so sick of all this whataboutism, obviously any killing is wrong but Hamas is just a glorified token a red herring being used to justify brutality on a Holocaust level scale. and we need to stop allowing it.
Tavarin@lemmy.ca 7 months ago
Not for lack of trying. If it weren’t for the billions of dollars spent on the Iron Dome every year, and the Israeli intelligence apparatus allowing them to evacuate their cities before attacks, many more Israelis would be dead. Attempted murder by Hamas is still atrocious.
Hamas still had broad support as of 2020, so no most Palestinians do want Hamas.
Tell Hamas to stop using them as bases of operation and firing rockets at Israel from those locations then. Hamas wants dead Palestinian civilians, that’s their goal in the war to make Israel look bad.
fosforus@sopuli.xyz 7 months ago
Bullshit statistic until it is verified by independent sources. Currently, the only source for that number is Hamas.
Eximius@lemmy.world 7 months ago
I feel hospitals (warcrime) were visible from satellites and independent sources covered it.
Karyoplasma@discuss.tchncs.de 7 months ago
In past conflicts, the death toll provided by Hamas (if you call the Ministry of Health in Gaza that) were largely accurate and didn’t differ much from independent counts conducted by the UN.
This article has an example on how it was in a conflict in 2014. There is another article that had more examples, but I cannot find it. It was from the Guardian I believe.
www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67347201
piexil@lemmy.world 7 months ago
Israel is not allowing anyone to to conduct outside verification, and hasn’t for literal years. They deny UN workers visas, disallow any humanitarian worker from entering or leaving Gaza ( hrw.org/…/israeli-restrictions-access-and-gaza-hu…)
but Hamas is not fighting outside verification. The UN has also repeatedly verified hamas’ death counts in previous instances.
That alone should tell you whose statistic you should be more trusting of, and it’s not israels.
timewarp@lemmy.world 7 months ago
Netanyahu be like… “Hmm, they are going to attack but if I stop them I may still go to jail, but if I don’t then I get more power… Let me have the Kushners put me in touch with Donny to see what he’d do.”
prole@sh.itjust.works 7 months ago
That’s the only difference you see? Not the extreme disproportionality of the bloodshed? Not the comparisons between civilian casualties on each side?
timewarp@lemmy.world 7 months ago
Hamas is like the cave-dwelling dwarf people that America made up for the middle-east to justify killing over a hundred-thousand civilians. Seriously, are we to believe that Gaza has a bunch of Gringotts vaults underneath it?
Seriously, it is clear that the bombing is not about saving hostages nor destroying Hamas. Would it surprise anyone if they found out that Israel’s far-right government is like the ex that attacks you and then punches themselves and screams like a Karen that you attacked them first… and then when asked for evidence because their wounds look self-induced, they yell… you don’t believe me you antisemitic Nazi!?!
spiderplant@lemm.ee 7 months ago
Oh no! Not a German overcompensating for their countries role in the holocaust.
If you want to dismantle Hamas for the the operation on the 7th, by the same logic we should dismantle Israel 10x for all their operations since 2003 such as operation lead.
SuddenDownpour@sh.itjust.works 7 months ago
Do you have a source for this?
spiderplant@lemm.ee 7 months ago
jordannews.jo/…/Helicopter-footage-shows-IOF-targ…
UnspecificGravity@lemmings.world 7 months ago
Sure, and if you are those things its going to be hard to get enthusiastic about voting for Biden.