Azzu@lemmy.dbzer0.com 10 hours ago
This all stems from a fundamental misunderstanding that no one seems to be interested in clearing up.
The original post that brought the allegations of feddit being zionist to more people is this one, and the one that originated the allegations is this one.
The feddit.org admin inside explicitly states that the removal of the comment being talked about by the original thread is not about pro-zionism or anti-semitism.
Now what does the person claim it is about? That seems to be majorly ignored. Let me rephrase it in my own words.
In Germany, after national socialism, we have very strict rules on how you are allowed to talk about it, because there were unfortunately a lot if people still denying it or not believing it. One of those rules is that no statement may be made that makes national socialism seem better than it was. So something you can’t say for example is “Trump’s ICE is national socialism!”. This seems extremely weird from an outside (the person saying it’s) perspective, because obviously, yes, the tactics Trump uses are directly borrowed from national socialism.
However, if you look at national socialism as a whole, it was much worse than just ICE. Millions were killed etc.
Now, the person who makes the statement “Trump’s ICE is national socialism!” is obviously using it to express that ICE is terrible. But if you want to look at it from a certain way (which German law likes to do) it’s also saying that they’re roughly equal, which, since Trump and ICE is currently not quite at the level of full national socialism, would minimize the severity of national socialism by bringing it “down” to the same level as the Trump regime and ICE.
Obviously, from a perspective of a person today, this seems ridiculous, because the current threat is ICE and not national socialism, so who cares about “how national socialism is talked about exactly”?! Isn’t it much more important to make sure that ICE is taken appropriately seriously? And you would of course be right. But the stance is that the ends do not justify the means, and it is very much possible to fight against ICE without comparing it to the whole of national socialism.
This is what is being talked about by the mods/admins. It has nothing to do with either anti-semitism or anti-zionism.
Now, if you say something like “Trump’s ICE resembles early national socialism!”, that is a completely fine statement to make in the eyes of the law. You are actually comparing ICE to what it actually is, “early [stages of] national socialism”, and not “national socialism [in general]”.
Feelings are running high, even as I type these words, I can imagine it. But please try to think about this stance for a moment and try to see that it is not Trump ICE apologist, or trying to minimize what ICE is doing. It is simply trying to pay heed to two important issues at the same time, of which one has much more immediacy and current real impact on people’s lives than the other.
I used this ICE example on purpose because it is even nearer than the genocide in Gaza. And because it is farther away from “full national socialism style genocide”. I hope I could make the thinking in this example clear, and I hope at least a modicum of rationality can be attributed to this.
And now let’s go back to the original zionist accusations. The original comment was removed because of the last part of it, which said “Providing material support to Israel is no different from providing material support to Nazi Germany”. As much as people don’t want to see it, the situation in Gaza is actually different than the situation in Nazi Germany. The Jewish population in Nazi Germany never launched rockets at Germans, in fact, jewish people in Nazi Germany were exceptionally peaceful. In Gaza, there is genocide happening, there is a power differential, and Palestinians need to fight back, but there is simply no rational denying that it’s not the same as the genocide in Nazi Germany.
Obviously what is happening in Gaza is terrible and Israel needs to be condemned, but what they’re doing is still not on the same level of evil as Nazi Germany. And thus you could argue that comparing the situation in Gaza to national socialism is minimizing the severity of national socialism. And thus the same kind of argument applies as in the previous example with ICE, it just is even less understandable for a person who didn’t know/understand/agree with this argument.
I’m basically sure I’ll be condemned as a zionist now, or whatever, go ahead.
Obviously what is happening in Gaza is terrible and Israel needs to be condemned, but what they’re doing is still not on the same level of evil as Nazi Germany.
As someone with a relative who died in a Nazi death camp, I resoundingly disagree. The scale may be relatively smaller, given that they’re attempting to steal a much smaller area of land for their Lebensraum, but the level of evil is the same.
The Jewish population in Nazi Germany never launched rockets at Germans, in fact, jewish people in Nazi Germany were exceptionally peaceful.
“The Jews never fought back” is certainly an incredible take, especially from a German.
In Gaza, there is genocide happening, there is a power differential, and Palestinians need to fight back, but there is simply no rational denying that it’s not the same as the genocide in Nazi Germany.
Do you not understand colonialism?
“The Jews never fought back” is not what I said. Again, you intentionally try to misinterpret what I said. I was specifically talking about the time before the Holocaust even started, there was no reason for Germans to fear Jewish people, as they were just normal people.
Do you not understand colonialism?
I’m completely aware that this originally started with the zionist invasion of palestine in the early 20th century.
I’m completely aware that this originally started with the zionist invasion of palestine in the early 20th century.
From your other comment next to this one…
I was specifically talking about the time before the Holocaust even started, there was no reason for Germans to fear Jewish people, as they were just normal people.
Do you not see how you’re not being consistent?
I do understand what you mean, however the attempted genocide that christians, jews and muslims are doing to each other is much older than any of that. You do not truly know anymore who started, the only thing I personally know is that the same way that a genocide against Palestinians needs to be stopped, so does a call for genocide against Israelis. Of course, due to other countries (including Germany) support of Israel, Palestine needs special protection and the immediate ceasing of all support to Israel.
What you do not see is that we don’t truly disagree, I’m just trying to explain one of the multi-faceted thought patterns that go on in some people’s brains. Multiple different concepts can co-exist at the same time, and do not necessarily contradict each other, like saying that the genocide in gaza needs to be stopped immediately and the genocide in Gaza and in the Holocaust not being the literal same.
the situation in Gaza is actually different than the situation in Nazi Germany
Last I checked, the genocidal state of Israel is actually using weapons to vaporize Palestinians, thus leaving not even a trace of a war crime. Would you like to amend your statement?
You know full well that this is not relevant to the point I was making, and seems like arguing in bad faith. If so, then please reconsider being kind and rational.
If you are genuine, then: I hoped it was very obvious that I know that some of what Israel is doing is as bad, and worse than what happened in the Holocaust. That does not mean that the scale is the same, or that the situation leading up to this is the same. While very clear parallels can be seen, and the direction this is going is very clear, it is simply false that the genocide in Gaza is even in the same order of magnitude as the Holocaust. Is that enough amendment?
Look up what the term ‘order of magnitude’ means and please absorb the -fact- that you are wrong in this statement.
“In Germany after National Socialism we have all been brainwashed to support genocide and Zioism and have to legally support our government sending weapons to a genocide because we like the previous one so much. Also we have a Gestapo which enforces this just like how we did in WW2”.
I’m basically sure I’ll be condemned as a zionist now, or whatever, go ahead.
Literally putting on the classic Nazi disclaimer
Can you explain why Germans have learned absolutely nothing from the Holocaust?
Can you explain why Germans have learned absolutely nothing from the Holocaust?
America and Western Europe were more interested in fighting the cold war, so they rehabilitated most of the nazis and put them in charge of everything.
In 1957, 77% of the [West German Justice Ministry’s] senior officials were former Nazis, which, according to the study, was a higher proportion that during Hitler’s Third Reich government, which existed from 1933 to 1945.
This is only one small example, the practice was widespread in West German as well as NATO generally.
If you really see support of genocide and zionism in what I said, I really don’t know what I could say to convince you. It seems you’re not truly listening to me and trying to understand. I can just hope eventually you will see that there is no point to us fighting, and I wish you well.
The German government is sending 30% the weapons to mass murder Palestinians in a concentration camp. This denial of full German government support for genocide is why nobody takes Germans seriously when they claim to care about the Holocaust. Take a long hard look at this image and see what you can take away from it
If you really see support of genocide and zionism in what I said, I really don’t know what I could say to convince you. It seems you’re not truly listening to me and trying to understand.
Oh no, people are not trying to understand your subtle and nuanced argument of “Palestinian genocide and the Holocaust are different because the Jews never fought back”.
You are trying to reduce my argument to one dimension that “sounds” reasonable, while ignoring things like it literally being in the charter of Hamas to destroy all Jewish people in Israel. And you’re going to say it is the prerogative of Palestinians to fight back, and again I would completely agree with you. It just doesn’t make much sense to argue with you, so I’m going to stop.
what [Netenyahu’s Israel is] doing is still not on the same level of evil as Nazi Germany.
Very difficult to say this for sure. Some of the acts we’ve seen are on the same level, frankly. And how could you possibly measure this, objectively?
I don’t think this can be argued meaningfully, and so should be removed from your argument.
As to the German law:
Very difficult to say this for sure.
I agree, but the death toll for example is a potential way to measure it. But again, I never said that the genocide in Gaza should happen, in fact I want it to be stopped by almost any means necessary, like not a counter-genocide.
Is that applicable here on Lemmy?
I’m not providing any commentary about what should be done, I was just hoping to help people understand that feddit.org is not filled or run by Zionists.
Very difficult to say this for sure. Some of the acts we’ve seen are on the same level, frankly. And how could you possibly measure this, objectively? I don’t think this can be argued meaningfully, and so should be removed from your argument.
I was attacked by people from dbzer0 and called “pro genocide” for saying that, but: There is of course a way to measure and compare violent acts. There is a whole academic field called “Comparative Genocide Studies” which, as you can guess, studies genocides, their differences, how they were committed and is trying to compare them or to categorize them. There are also people doing this from a military point of view studying how wars are fought and so on. That is something you can do - but not here on Lemmy.
As to the German law: Is that applicable here on Lemmy? Is it up to the mods to interpret German law and apply it?
Yes? Feddit.org is an austrian/german site and therefore has to operate under local rules. The fediverse is not some lawless cyberspace thing. It has servers running in datacenters and those servers have to account for local laws. It has people funding those servers and those people are people living in their home country have to obey local laws.
those people are people living in their home country have to obey local laws.
You have a moral responsibility to disobey moral injustices, even when, actually, especially when they are codified into law. If you rely on the German standard you have no functional mechanism to communicate that a genocide as as bad as the Holocaust is occurring. Which is obviously ridiculous, and you should disobey that law.
I think people attacking you as “pro-genocide” is exactly as reasonable as the German standard disallowing comparison of Nazism, which is funny.
The existence of a field of study which purports to compare genocide doesn’t validate your assertion that Israel is less evil than the third Reich. I still don’t think you can make this point.
The German law around speech comparing anything to Nazism sounds complex and subtle. I would argue that it’s a matter for the courts to decide, rather than for unqualified moderators to overcomply in advance.
If you are a coward then just don’t talk at all sbout Gaza and don’t defend zionism
I don’t think we can expect commenter to be as nuanced as an academic specializing in genocides.
On the legal front, it is to me morally obvious that that comment was pretty measured and deleting it was fucked. If you claim to do a fucked thing for legal reason, I think it’s fair to demand evidence that you are under legal duress. Is there a history of feddit specifically or german fedi sites.in general being hammered for “antisemitic” comments?
The answer to that would determines how much I am pissed at german authorities for misapplying the law or at feddit admins for being cowards.
In Germany, after national socialism, we have very strict rules on how you are allowed to talk about it, because there were unfortunately a lot of people still denying it or not believing it.
True. But a lot of people on the whole Fediverse seem to be very narrow-minded black-and-white thinkers. In their logic, following the law in Germany is equivalent to following direct orders from the Gestapo. Maybe you just don’t want to get arrested and put in jail for running a niche community on the internet, but that’s not even an argument to them.
Some people in that db0 thread even suggested feddit.org should just shut down completely, which is ridiculous. Every country must’ve laws you don’t agree with, but you don’t run and hide because of that.
This “we vs. them” attitude is exactly what’s been criticized about MAGA all of the time, but doing it in this case is perfectly legitimate, somehow. I don’t know what kind of brain gymnastics you’ll have to do to come to a conclusion like this.
It’s just exhausting trying to talk to these people. I say let them shut down their community and hang out in their radicalized bubble. Good riddance.
True. But a lot of people on the whole Fediverse seem to be very narrow-minded black-and-white thinkers.
“Black and white thinking” is when you don’t like people who defend their defense of genocide by saying “it’s the law”?
discuss.tchncs.de
Sometimes I wonder if German instances are a social experiment and our reactions are being recorded and analyzed.
The internet is awesome. You can discuss genocides with someone who named himself and has a profile picture after an dictator who did several genocides! And this guy is attacking others for “defense of genocide”! Great invention this internet thingy!
The internet is awesome. You can discuss genocides with someone who named himself after an dictator who did several genocides! Who has a picture of this dictactor in his profile! And this guy is attacking others for “defense of genocide”! Great invention this internet thingy!
We have found the most historically literate feddit user.
this is so historically illiterate it’s laughable. What genocides did lenin commit lmao
There is no black and white in settler colonialism
In Germany, after national socialism, we have very strict rules on how you are allowed to talk about it,
ah yes the “im just following orders” defence the favorite of the saurkrauts.
I wonder why people compared ICE to the gestapo? thinkin-lenin
the Gestapo (Secret State Police) actively deported people, playing a central role in the systematic roundup and deportation of Jews and other perceived enemies of the Nazi regime to ghettos and extermination camps during the Holocaust
The Jewish population in Nazi Germany never launched rockets at Germans, in fact, jewish people in Nazi Germany were exceptionally peaceful.
Warsaw Ghetto Uprising jews actually did fought back against being exterminated by the Nazis, or do you see them as violent extremist too?
ah yes the “im just following orders” defence the favorite of the saurkrauts
What I said had nothing to do with that. Anyway, I can’t keep up with all the stuff people are saying to me, so please excuse if I don’t elaborate further.
jews actually did fought back against being exterminated by the Nazis
What I mean was in the time before the Holocaust even started.
What I mean was in the time before the Holocaust even started.
Just to check, when do you think “Israelis” started committing genocide against Palestinians?
Roughly around 1919 with the British support of an Israeli state.
TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world 4 hours ago
If you rely on the German standard, you’d never be able to call a genocide a genocide until its fully executed.
Which obviously supports those committing the genocide.
Azzu@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 hours ago
Have you really not seen me multiple times calling the genocide in Gaza a genocide? The ability to recognize the genocide in Gaza as a genocide is very much there, you really can’t see it?
LeninWeave@lemmy.ml 4 hours ago
Only while saying the people resisting it are also wrong and doing Holocaust exceptionalism in defense of liberal zionists, lmao.
The original comment was good and correct. Supporting one settler state committing genocide is actually the same as supporting another.
Azzu@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 hours ago
I’ve never said that the people resisting their genocide were wrong to do it. You’re intentionally misinterpreting what I’m saying.
I don’t disagree with you, that’s why I tried to explain the nuance, but apparently I failed, I’m sorry about that.
TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world 4 hours ago
Look at the response in context of Feddit. Its not a critique of you, per se, its a critique of the German law/ idealogical approach. Lets suggest, in your words, a full “national socialist” genocide is at least possible in this day and age. The world did no know the full extent of Germany’s action until well into the process.
If we rely on the logic of the German approach, we wouldn’t be able to call the thing a thing until its too late. The point being made is that if you wait long enough to be able to a full historical analysis, you’ve effectively become an apologist for genocide on the basis of a lack of evidence.
And I would argue that Israels actions over the previous 80 years are extremely comparable to what the National Socialists did in Germany, and in some ways, even more disgusting. Germany ran concentration camps for around 12 years. Israel has been running them for almost 80. Germany treated it as a war of extermination. Israel is running it as a war of extermination.
The only difference is that we have the opportunity to stop Israel in its tracks, now, as its becomes clear the Israelies are not going to stop until the entire Palestinian population is eliminated. Disallowing or diminishing comparisons between the most famous historical genocide and the ongoing Israeli genocide in Palestine supports genocide
Azzu@lemmy.dbzer0.com 4 hours ago
The thing is called a thing and should be called a thing. I.e. genocide. All genocide needs to be stopped at almost any cost. I don’t have any capacity to argue further, so many people are saying things.