Comment on Upvotes and downvotes are public information on Lemmy

• GreenKnight23@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I mean…I am “they”.

  honestly I’m at a loss of even how to respond to your critique. you’re comparing first world problems and the primary request of the Ukrainian government like it’s apples to apples.

  I think if either of us is underestimating the complexity of the situation, it’s you.

  many of the problems that are plaguing Ukraine right now is Russia. many of the problems plaguing Russia right now is their illegal occupation of Ukraine. the simplest solution right now is for Russia to leave Ukraine. after that, discussions of reciprocity can be held. I use that term loosely here though because Russia is clearly the one at fault and Ukraine has been acting in self-defense, as such Ukraine shouldn’t be required to repay anything to Russia.

  also, if you’re coming to Lemmy to have a deep political discussion on the finer points of political discourse (especially on the topic of Russia), you might not be that intelligent. maybe read a book on the subject and find a discussion group at a local library if you want to engage with an intellectual.

  remember, these are comments not thesis statements.

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  • Perspectivist@feddit.uk ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    By “they,” I’m referring to OP, whose comment you misrepresented with “disagreeing Russia should go home and leave Ukraine alone” - which is not what they actually said.

    Another good rule of thumb for online discussion came to mind while reading your response: when someone immediately resorts to ad hominem, they almost certainly don’t know what they’re talking about.

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    • npdean@lemmy.today ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Thank you for saying it. I thought I was going mad.

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  • npdean@lemmy.today ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Ok at the risk of being downvoted to oblivion, why do you think Russia invaded Ukraine?

    Mind you, I still think Russia did the wrong thing but there is nuance.

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    • FelixCress@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      why do you think Russia invaded Ukraine?

      To take it over. You know, like they have done with number of countries number of times before?

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      • Bloomcole@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        That’s the US shithole dummy

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    • GreenKnight23@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      There is no nuance. Russia amassed an invasion force at the Ukrainian border for a week before entering their sovereign territory.

      Russia postured at the border and had been threatening to advance for months before that even.

      Russia was supporting Russian separatists and funding domestic terrorists within Ukraine before the invasion.

      the only reason why this happened is because the Ukrainian public rebelled against the Russian fed corruption and held an actual legitimate election and removed the installed puppets.

      if there is any nuance here, it’s in the multiple ways that Russia had attempted to circumvent the will of the Ukrainian people.

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    • Swedneck@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      ah yes all those times that countries have invaded other countries for good reasons

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• PhilipTheBucket@quokk.au ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  No, it's on par with telling someone "Well, you shouldn't keep driving drunk then" or "You should 100% stop contacting her and move on if she keeps instantly blocking you on every new platform you try on." Certain actions really are under voluntary control. We're not telling Russia they really need to shape up that GDP if they want the world to take them seriously. We're asking them to stop deciding to kill innocent people. Seems legit. The obstacle is that they really want to, and they're reluctant to stop.

  (The analogy is flawed because there's no real equivalency between driving drunk and maybe rolling the dice on killing one family, and yourself, versus doing it to members of a million families. But the simplicity of the solution is the same.)

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  • Perspectivist@feddit.uk ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    There’s no real cost to stopping drunk driving. Putin, on the other hand, has gone all in on the war in Ukraine. “Just pull your troops from Ukraine” is about as realistic as “just shoot yourself,” because from his perspective, the outcome is basically the same in both scenarios.

    Sure, it would be nice if Russia simply left Ukraine, but put yourself in Putin’s position - it’s a complete non-solution. You don’t fold after going all in. It’s an incredibly naive thing to say, and it ignores the reality and complexity of the situation entirely. It’s a thought-terminating cliché - a feel-good slogan people toss around to avoid critical thinking, while fishing for upvotes from like-minded people.

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    • FelixCress@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      There’s no real cost to stopping drunk driving.

      There isn’t one for Russia to go home neither.

      put yourself in Putin’s position - it’s a complete non-solution

      You are taking a fucking piss.

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    • AFKBRBChocolate@lemmy.ca ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Wow, I’m dumbfounded by this logic.

      Let’s say you and I live next door to each other. One day, my family and I break into your house and move in. You tell us to leave, but we punch you in the face. You try fighting back, but we don’t leave, and days and weeks go by. I’ve moved some of my furniture into your house. How would you feel if people started saying that the problem is now too complex. I’ve obviously invested too much in living in your house for me to just pack up and go home. The solution is going to have to be more nuanced than that.

      This seems to be the logic you’re defending.

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      • Perspectivist@feddit.uk ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        Nothing I’ve said is in any way defending the invasion.

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    • PhilipTheBucket@quokk.au ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Sure, it would be nice if Russia simply left Ukraine, but put yourself in Putin’s position - it’s a complete non-solution. You don’t fold after going all in. It’s an incredibly naive thing to say

      This is exactly the kind of logic someone would use to justify either of the examples I brought up. Exactly.

      The fact that he really doesn't want to stop killing innocent people, and so he would have to pay the "cost" of doing something he doesn't want to do, isn't a justification. I would actually really like for him to be arrested on that ICC warrant and try to explain this exactly logic at the Hague. I think it would be great. I would support him using that defense, I think it would be wonderful to see. People could decide whether to accept the logic, and then whether to hang him or not depending on whether they bought into it as a good reason for continuing to kill innocent people on an industrial scale.

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      • Perspectivist@feddit.uk ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        Explanation is not excuse. This has absolutely nothing to do with justifying anything they’ve done.

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    • nickwitha_k@lemmy.sdf.org ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      put yourself in Putin’s position - it’s a complete non-solution. You don’t fold after going all in.

      That’s literally no one’s problem but Putin’s. He has committed crimes. He should accept the personal reprecussions. You’re basically making the “affluenza” argument for someone who has been committing war crimes and murdering civilians because they dared to want to have a representative government.

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      • Perspectivist@feddit.uk ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        I’m not defending Putin’s actions - I’m assessing the realistic options given the current situation. There’s a difference between what should happen in a moral sense and what is actually likely to happen in the real world.

        Saying “he should accept the consequences” is easy - but how exactly do you propose making that happen? Wishing for an outcome is not the same as having a way to it. If you think there’s a viable way to get Putin to take personal responsibility or withdraw and survive it personally, I’m genuinely interested in hearing what you think that looks like in practice.

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    • npdean@lemmy.today ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Ok I have ro ask, have you studied philosophy or language? Your comments are so well formed with proper terminology.

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      • Perspectivist@feddit.uk ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        Thank you!

        No, I haven’t - I’m a plumber by training. I credit my autism for my precision of speech, and as for my philosophy and the vocabulary around it, I’d say that’s simply the result of a few decades of debating these topics online, combined with thousands of hours of podcasts and YouTube videos covering these topics.

        It’s rare that I say anything completely original. If something I say comes across as well-crafted, it’s probably because I’ve said the exact same thing a dozen times before.

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      • PhilipTheBucket@quokk.au ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        This is just bait lol

        Get a room you two

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• npdean@lemmy.today ⁨2⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  if someone offers a simple solution to a complex problem, they probably don’t know what they’re talking about.

  New quote added to my journal

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