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The article is shit, the study is about copper used reducing fossil-fuel power generation. It is basing the projected use of copper on windmills and especially large batteries.
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Those high-powered and long distance power lines are made aluminium and steel.
Comment on Geologists doubt Earth has the amount of copper needed to develop the entire world
masterspace@lemmy.ca 4 weeks ago
What is this publication and who finances it because this section is incredibly sus:
Copper use is not carved in stone. Hybrid cars, which pair small batteries with gasoline engines, need far less of the metal than fully electric vehicles.
Power grids that mix nuclear, wind, solar, and a pinch of natural-gas backup can slice the copper bill dramatically compared with battery-heavy systems.
“First of all, users can fact-check the study, but also they can change the study parameters and evaluate how much copper is required if we have an electric grid that is 20% nuclear, 40% methane, 20% wind, and 20% hydroelectric, for example,” Simon said. “They can make those changes and see what the copper demand will be.”
Like you think we can transition to an increasingly electrified world, where all power comes from electric utility lines, and you think our copper usage will be … just in renewable power plants?
This reads like straight fossil fuel propaganda. In an electrified future the majority of copper use comes from distribution lines and products that use electricity not the type of power plants generating electricity.
raltoid@lemmy.world 4 weeks ago
masterspace@lemmy.ca 4 weeks ago
- Distribution doesn’t just include long distance distribution. It includes all the wiring between transformers and houses and all the internal wiring of the house and all the devices inside etc.
fullsquare@awful.systems 4 weeks ago
only residential wiring uses copper, everything from 350kV down to 400V lines is aluminum, and even in houses aluminum can be used too
surewhynotlem@lemmy.world 4 weeks ago
aluminum can be used too
Thousands of fires disagree
Saleh@feddit.org 4 weeks ago
And that part is entirely independent from whether the electricity is generated with solar, wind or fossil fuels.
GenosseFlosse@feddit.org 4 weeks ago
In a lot of cases you can also use Aluminum instead of copper. You need thicker wires and it’s less flexible, but it’s doable and cheaper. Some old electric motors from the eastern block used aluminium coils for that matter, because copper was much more expensive there.
frezik@midwest.social 4 weeks ago
The US is allergic to it, but needs to get over it.
Aluminum wire was tried in the 1970s due to a spike in copper prices. The problem was that they just tried to swap it right in. Aluminum and copper have different rates of expansion. Over time, that would slowly loosen the connectors, and the wires would pop right out and cause a fire.
You can design connectors to handle both, and you’ll see many electrical things today specify that they’re good for aluminum or copper wire. It still has a bad reputation among electricians; they haven’t unlearned the problem yet.
Now, one place it’s more of a problem is in things like transformer windings. There are kilometers of wiring in any of them, so the higher resistance of aluminum is a problem.
GenosseFlosse@feddit.org 4 weeks ago
Now, one place it’s more of a problem is in things like transformer windings. There are kilometers of wiring in any of them, so the higher resistance of aluminum is a problem.
Is it? As far as I know you can use a larger diameter wire to get the same resistance as copper, if your device has enough space for bigger coils.
barsoap@lemm.ee 4 weeks ago
You’re trying to transmit power via magnetism so distance is an issue.
Corkyskog@sh.itjust.works 4 weeks ago
Its not just electricians, its got a stigma that seems really hard to overcome without some sort of education campaign. People wont buy a place that has aluminum wires.
barsoap@lemm.ee 4 weeks ago
Aluminium is actually a better conductor than copper when you judge it by mass, not volume. I think also by tensile strength.
In any case there’s a reason that large overland wires aren’t copper, but steel-cladded aluminium. Copper will always have its applications but so does gold and yet we’re not running out of gold to plate connections with.
In cases like windings requiring more volume is actually an issue, in the case of PCBs… no, despite Apple’s insistence, it’s actually fine to have a phone that’s 0.2mm thicker.
SomeoneSomewhere@lemmy.nz 4 weeks ago
You’re wrong in terms of long distance power lines being mostly copper, but this does seem a lot like fossil fuel propaganda.
Motors, generators, and transformers can be built using aluminium; they’re just a bit bulkier and less efficient. Very common practice.
It looks like CCA might be making its way back into house wiring in the near future, with much lower risks than the 70s aluminium scare.
The big thing is that batteries really should be a last resort, behind demand response (using power when it is available, rather than storing it for later), long distance transmission, and public transport instead of private vehicles.
r_deckard@lemmy.world 4 weeks ago
Heh. My batteries are flooded lead-acid, all 1320ah of 'em. No copper guilt here.
masterspace@lemmy.ca 4 weeks ago
You’re wrong in terms of long distance power lines being mostly copper, but this does seem a lot like fossil fuel propaganda.
Motors, generators, and transformers can be built using aluminium; they’re just a bit bulkier and less efficient. Very common practice.
What I mean is that the bulk of current copper wiring goes towards distribution and consumption, not generation.
The big thing is that batteries really should be a last resort, behind demand response (using power when it is available, rather than storing it for later), long distance transmission, and public transport instead of private vehicles.
This isn’t a big thing. This is a constant thing in every system. It’s the push and pull between efficiency and resiliency. More storage capacity is less efficient when things are going well, but is more resilient and adaptable when they’re not.
SomeoneSomewhere@lemmy.nz 4 weeks ago
What I mean is that the bulk of current copper wiring goes towards distribution and consumption, not generation.
Yes, but big batteries everywhere is going to effect that if there’s copper in lithium batteries, and apparently there is.
This isn’t a big thing. This is a constant thing in every system. It’s the push and pull between efficiency and resiliency. More storage capacity is less efficient when things are going well, but is more resilient and adaptable when they’re not.
Excess storage capacity, sure.
But inflating the base battery capacity to cover people having showers at 5pm because it’s easier than storage water heaters and time/remote controls is stupid. You can reduce the base need for batteries by reducing the need for electricity in the first place and reducing the use of vehicles that need to carry batteries in place of e.g. overhead catenary.
masterspace@lemmy.ca 4 weeks ago
But inflating the base battery capacity to cover people having showers at 5pm because it’s easier than storage water heaters and time/remote controls is stupid. You can reduce the base need for batteries by reducing the need for electricity in the first place and reducing the use of vehicles that need to carry batteries in place of e.g. overhead catenary.
A solution that doesn’t take into account human nature isn’t a solution.
acosmichippo@lemmy.world 4 weeks ago
it sounded like they were trying to say battery grid storage is going to be the main problem here:
After the introduction of smartphones, wind turbines, and high-capacity batteries, copper’s role has grown from important to indispensable.
except the article they linked is about lithium-CO2 batteries and does not mention copper at all.
Even if we really do need to reduce grid storage to save copper, we can do that with more baseline nuclear power, no need to keep involving fossil fuels.
masterspace@lemmy.ca 4 weeks ago
Or you use pumped hydro, or compressed air, or gravity batteries, or any of the other energy storage technologies that aren’t chemical batteries.
brown567@sh.itjust.works 4 weeks ago
Most electrical transmission lines are aluminum because it’s cheaper and lighter
douglasg14b@lemmy.world 4 weeks ago
Your argument against the article that talks about copper usage is founded on incomplete knowledge of where copper is actually used?
🤦
masterspace@lemmy.ca 4 weeks ago
It’s founded on the article not making a cohesive argument. Current copper usage is primarily in consumption and distribution, not generation.
_stranger_@lemmy.world 4 weeks ago
Do they think the copper is consumed? Like, renewable resources burn copper?!
carbs@lemmy.world 4 weeks ago
I’m not defending the article, but I think most overhead power lines are aluminium, which is probably good as it’s abundant compared to copper.
Geodad@lemm.ee 4 weeks ago
The problem with aluminum is that it gets REALLY hot when current is run through it. It used to be ised to wire homes, but is now banned because it wasn’t safe.
SomeoneSomewhere@lemmy.nz 4 weeks ago
That’s incorrect. Aluminium is about 30% worse by volume than copper, meaning you need to go up a size. What stopped it being used for houses was that the terminations weren’t good enough, because aluminium has different thermal expansion and corrosion properties, plus they were using much worse alloys. That’s now mostly fixed and if you’re in the US, there’s a very good chance that your service main is aluminium, and there’s talk of allowing copper-clad aluminium (CCA) for subcircuit wiring.
Per mass, aluminium is a better conductor, which is why it’s almost exclusively used overhead and in pretty significant volumes underground. The power grids were built on ACSR.