Comment on dear republicans, what's the point of alienating every single ally of the US?

MortUS@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

• Snowclone@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  The ‘‘aid’’ we send to Ukraine is the US goverment using US money to buy US products and have the military drop them off. Those millions we send to Ukraine money we have and keep in our economy, why conservatives are so fucking stupid they can’t figure this out is infuriating. Yes. Saw off you legs to lose weight. You’ll lose SO much.

  source

  • AA5B@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    Not even. A lot of the “aid” is

    • military takes old stuff out of stock and drops it off in Ukraine
    • us gov’t buys new stuff from US companies
    • military gets fresh stock

    source

    • Objection@lemmy.ml ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

      • strong profitable defense contractors

      Why the hell is this supposed to be a point in favor? I don’t support the military-industrial complex, because I’m not a right-winger or a hawk.

      source

      • AA5B@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

        Profitable is a point in favor, if you’re one of them. Strong supply chain is a point in favor, if you’re a hawk or if you think we do need defense

        source

        • -> View More Comments
  • MortUS@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    It’s a bit more complicated than that. We’re not just sending missiles, some of it is logistical, funding, training - some of it doesn’t just come back into our economy, and not in full. For example, there is a fund in the billions for Ukraine and allies to buy weapons from us on a need by basis - but like not immediately. It has been years, it could be years.

    More importantly though a good portion of these funds were out of bounds of the National Budget causing National Debt to grow. Now, I’m not saying Ukraine is the sole reason the National Debt is out of control, it’s been a long time coming, but we’re peaking. We print more money, the value of the dollar drops, things get more expensive not just national but worldwide since the dollar is an international currency reserve.

    So, while I understand your angst it is a bit more nuanced.

    source

    • zenitsu@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      How concerned are trumpoloides about how much return they get from aid to Israel? No minerals? they haven’t been programmed for that I guess.

      source

      • MortUS@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

        I don’t even understand the point you’re trying to make with this one. I guess if you’re referring to me as a trumpoloid you could dumb this response down a bit so I can maybe process it and reply. On a side note, I don’t understand why we (as a Nation) support Israels genocide, but I personally don’t support it so there’s that I guess.

        source

        • -> View More Comments
    • prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      This faux concern about the debt is so fucking disingenuous, and I wish people would stop claiming it because you’re embarrassing yourselves.

      source

      • MortUS@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

        The National Debt has been on a steady growth since Obama, through Trump, through Biden. Like, it’s an issue that spans multiple presidencies and parties. The U.S. dollars is a global reserve note. So, not only do we need to account for paying it down in our National Budget, but we also can’t just print more money at the problem either. I fully support Ukraine. Russia should not have invaded them, and either we or the EU should have had a stronger opposition than just throwing money at the problem. If we want to continue to support Ukraine, if we want to pay down our National Debt, if we want to continue supporting our Nations social services we need to fucking tax Billionaires and their Trillion dollar companies. Like, corporations buying politicians is a problem.

        That National Debt isn’t some invisible barrier, it affects our every day lives, our future, what programs we can support, and the global economy. I don’t know, unless you can explain to me me why the National Debt doesn’t matter, and how we can continue to support Ukraine. I’m here for a discussion.

        source

        • -> View More Comments
  • Objection@lemmy.ml ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    The money is still in the US but in private hands rather than public. Just because the money primarily stays in the domestic economy doesn’t mean there’s no cost to it.

    source

    • Snowclone@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

      If you want more money in public hands, holy shit is supporting a republican at any point from Regan to Trump the dumbest shit you could vote for. This is the party of ‘‘goverment doesn’t work’’ and privatization of all public services. They have never been shy about just how little tax revenue they want to end up in gov service to citizens.

      source

      • Objection@lemmy.ml ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

        I’m aware. I’ve never voted Republican in my life and don’t intend to.

        source
    • zenitsu@sh.itjust.works ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      You realise private workers are also civilians with lives aka members of the public. Wtf do you mean “in private hands rather than the public”?

      source

      • Objection@lemmy.ml ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

        “Public funds” refers to money held by the government, tax revenue. The amount of public funds is limited and there are a lot of valid, competing priorities for how the government spends it’s money. Every dollar of public funds spent on bombs is a dollar that’s not available for things like schools and infrastructure.

        Private workers receive only some of the funds spent on manufacturing bombs. A significant portion of it goes to executives and shareholders in the military-industrial complex, as well as finding their way to politicians in the form of bribes. Private funds cannot be allocated to public services unless the individual chooses to donate them, or they are taxed back into being public.

        I really shouldn’t have to explain this, the difference between public and private is extremely basic.

        source

        • -> View More Comments
    • Litebit@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      In american workers hands too.

      source
• itsprobablyfine@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  I recognize you’re doing some form or devils advocate and I appreciate that. I grew up in the ruins of one of those cities and it really helped define my political beliefs. I think it’s important to not suddenly frame NAFTA as this wonderful thing just because trump opposes it. There is a real reckoning we need to have as a country when it comes to rebuilding our industrial base. Are tariffs the answer? Almost certainly not, but that doesn’t mean that the people asking for them are completely delusional. Trump is capitalizing on a real pain that people are feeling, and have felt for a generation now. I wish we had a proper progressive to reframe the debate. It’s not about us vs Canada, it’s about the disgustingly wealthy vs everyone else. You don’t want people to support tariffs? Then we need real left wing populist arguments.

  I know it’s stupid. Being right should be good enough. But it’s not. We need to be convincing. And not ‘republican lite’ convincing - more like teddy Roosevelt f’ing come at me unabashed progressivism convincing.

  source

  • toxiczombie@lemm.ee ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    What about a good, strong third party? A green party or a working class party of some sort? It’s fully evident neither Reps nor Dems give a single fuck about the working class, they just pretend so they can use them while pocketing the money of the rich and stuffing their wallets. I feel like I’m not the only one who is 100% fed up with the bullshit of both parties and just want an actual party throwing the best candidates based on their policies and hosting proper primary elections so we can choose who tf speaks for us.

    It’s 2025 ffs. I don’t care about the candidates’ fashion or their goddamn tours and rallies. You can get the word out there in any number of ways. Engage with your target audience. Your voterbase. Get one of the practically nonexistant parties to step up. I’m tired of dealing with a tug-o-war between two sides of the same goddamn coin. We need a party that will focus on keeping us rooted to the constitutional values and ensuring everyone has access to the rights of the basic human necessities of this century. Let the goddamn donkey and elephant Duke it out over policies neither of them really care about. Idgaf. I just want more goddamn options. Some real fucking options.

    source
  • MortUS@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    Yeah, I agree I don’t think NAFTA was a wholly wonderful thing - a lot of people lost their jobs, had families at the time, and really, it was poor planning to not realize that what happened happened. I think NAFTA had some good ideas and planning, like trying reduce carbon emissions and trying to ensure workers are being taken care of, but I think overall the transition from industry was fumbled.

    I honestly have no idea if tariffs are the answer, but if they aren’t, it seems like people are going to start to realize the quality in life difference. And I mean, it could have a rubberband effect. History has shown that when conditions get bad, workers revolt, pretty much always. If the country is going to be run like a Corporation trying to recoup costs, what’s the percentage before it gets noticeable? Maybe, optimistically, at the end of all this, we can get money out of politics, corporate money specifically, funding transparency, stock? idk about that - stricter rules or something. Then we could actually focus on real things that matter without this weird age of commercial politics.

    At the end of the day, I think people of all parties and backgrounds can come together on the idea/conversation to remove money from politics. Having our representation (vote/politician) able to be bought by some billionaire through backchannels (donations, crypto, favors) is simply not fair or in our best interests.

    source
• LePoisson@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  Funny you think they’re going to actually pay down the debt.

  source

  • MortUS@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    I’m cautiously optimistic. They cut 22 Billion in Social Services. If things keep getting worse, regular people are going to start wondering where that money is going and the veil will be lifted.

    source

    • LePoisson@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      Regular people are dumb af they elected that orange shit stain while he spit in our faces.

      So I’m not really confident they’re gonna connect any dots.

      source
  • Litebit@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    They are not Trump increased the debt a huge amount. investopedia.com/us-debt-by-president-dollar-and-…

    source

    • LePoisson@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      I know that’s why I thought it was funny! Got to find the humor in this mess right now. Hoping we can right the ship but right now Trump is steering us into an ice berg full speed ahead

      source
• BadmanDan@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  Republicans literally add to the debt everytime they’re elected.

  source

  • MortUS@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    So do Democrats, it’s been on a hot run for the last decade or so. Through Obama, through Trump, through Biden, and now back to Trump. This is a multi-party issue and the solution is to tax Billionaires.

    source

    • BadmanDan@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      I’m disagreeing. Even though Clinton was the last president to decrease the debt when he left office.

      But as a liberal, I’m not worried about the National Debt if they’d just cut military spending, which is like saying you wanna kill a baby now, since 9/11.

      We need forgiveness from China, not tariffs.

      source
• Asafum@feddit.nl ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  American industry at the time, but can that industry recover, and should it? Personally, I don’t think so, but they seem to think so.

  I would just say that not everyone is cut out for “advanced” jobs. There is a need for more industrial/mechanical jobs that those of us can occupy and still make a decent living.

  I don’t mean that as a way to disparage other people, I’m referring to myself and people like me. I’m far too stupid for tech jobs.

  source

  • MortUS@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    You right, I think there’s always going to be a need for industrial and mechanics. Like, we’re for sure always going to need transport, lumber, steel, infrastructure, logistics, more. When I wrote that I was mostly thinking Steel as we really just don’t have as much a need for it as we used to. Like, sure we need to keep up with infrastructure and national security, etc. but we’re not at war, we’re not expanding as a nation (like big cities) anymore so it’ll never recover to times before NAFTA.

    That being said, I really do think we should be making automobiles in house which could bring more Steel back, but on the other hand, do we really want more automobiles? Like, drive by any dealership and there always seem to just be an abundance.

    source
• Litebit@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  Trump added a lot to the national debt. investopedia.com/us-debt-by-president-dollar-and-…

  source

  • MortUS@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    Every president has. It’s been a growing problem through multiple different administrations now. This isn’t a party issue, it’s a “Eat the Rich” issue. The Billionaire class has taking but not putting back in, and they’re expecting regular working people to foot the bill. That’s why the 22 Billion dollar cut on Social Services through HHS instead of taxing the 400+ Billionaires in America.

    source
• jacksilver@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  You’ve really bought into the propaganda there, besides Clinton our national debt has always been the “highest” every year. The most important factor is foreign vs domestically held debt, and that ratio hasn’t changed for the worse.

  Obviously we have some spending concerns, but financially that’s not the primary concern for the US right now (and we wouldn’t be talking tax cuts if it was).

  source

  • MortUS@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    Maybe I have bought into the propaganda, but am willing to learn more. If we’re pouring Trillions from our National Budget into paying down the ever-growing Federal Debt, where’s the tipping point for the dollars value?

    This debt has been ever-growing, by the +5 trillion pretty much every administration, and American prosperity has been on a decline (maybe not for you, but the city I’m sitting in feels it). If we’re not going to tax Billionaires (which we fucking should, by a lot) then what’s the next best thing to bring better prosperity to the American Working Class?

    Finally, what do you feel is America’s primary economic concern?

    source

    • jacksilver@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      While the amount of debt has been ever growing, it hasn’t relative to GDP. When it has grown, it’s grown primarily due to policies from Bush and Trump. Both of these president’s also passed massive tax breaks which is a significant contributing factor to the national debt.

      At the end of the day, the national debt only matters if we can’t pay it. All the cuts being made to federal spending right now are more significant because they will slow down the economy and cause reverberations for years to come (public research and investment are multipliers for the economy in many ways).

      As you call out, we should be taxing billionaires, which points to the larger economic concern right now for America - economic disparity.

      source

      • MortUS@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

        Right now, the National Debt is ~125% of the GDP and is estimated to climb - we’ll know more March 27th when the quarterly report is published.

        I had to do some research on this one because I wasn’t too familiar with how much weight the ratio factors in. For example, Japan is over 200%, but they’re well off due to societal/governmental factors such as low interest rates, high sovereign savings, and keeping a portion of the debt local to the nation itself. On the other hand, Greece is ~160% due to their last recession. They had worker strikes in 2024 due to stagnating wages, but they’re a come back with economic growth projected to hit ~2% and debt ratio to be at ~145% by the end of the year so it’s a bit of a mixed bag.

        That being said, the U.S. is in quite a different situation economically. From what I can tell, it’s not great, but not catastrophic either. If our economic growth continues it’s upward trend, maybe we can balance it out. But, if our National Debt continues to grow, or if our GDP starts to taper off, the % gap may widen and we may see a slow and steady downturn in QoL. The economists I ran across seemed to agree that it could be a growing issue and something to keep an eye on how it’s handled. I thought this blogpost was a good read - it doesn’t get into all the nuance but is a decent summary / overlook. For an official overlook you can read the House Summary.

        Finally, this is from the House snippet doc, if you trust that, it is primarily Republican-run, but it says:

        In fiscal year 2024, interest on the debt became the government’s third largest budget line item, following only Social Security and Medicare.

        source