Submitted 8 months ago by L4s@lemmy.world [bot] to technology@lemmy.world
Biden Administration Is Said to Slow Early Stage of Shift to Electric Cars::The change to planned rules was an election-year concession to labor unions and auto executives, according to people familiar with the plan.
How about tell the dealerships and auto execs to fuck off? Up the subsidy that has not changed in 10 years.
“Labor unions” are the workers, so it’s everyone.
I’m not in the know on this. How might one play devil’s advocate? Aren’t they still considered to be too expensive for most people? The electric grid ready?
They are too expensive. But only because auto manufacturers are only making midsized and larger suvs or luxury cars. The average price of an EV has dropped over 50% in China since 2015. That would have been tough for us to match, mostly because of batteries, but we could have made much more progress than we have.
The electric grid isn’t nearly as unprepared as people say. Sure, we need to build out more charging stations, but the grid as a whole far exceeds current needs. In fact, nationwide electrical usage is actually trending down in the US because of efficiency gains. Better building codes, heat pumps, LED lighting, if it uses electricity newer stuff is more efficient. If we had sold 8 times as many EVs in 2023 than we did, electricity usage would have stayed about flat.
Here’s the story as I understand it. US automakers want to make expensive premium cars because those sell for high margins. The big breakthrough in the EV market over the past few years has been China EV makers figuring out how to make cheap and “good-enough” EVs, which are catching on in many places across the world. This is clearly the direction in which the market has to move (whether via Chinese or non-Chinese automakers) to spur mass EV adoption. In the US, however, the established automakers can rely on protectionism to block imports, this keeping the US market limited to big expensive cars that remain using ICEs.
You sound informed, more so than I. The heat pump thing confuses me, and I’ve seen it a lot lately.
I was under the impression that the vast majority of homes were using a heat pump system. Seems like a no-brainer? Is this not so?
As a renter, I have no way to charge an electric car nightly. The availability of charging infrastructure outside of private homes will be more and more of an issue, unless battery tech significantly improves to be at parity with gas (e.g. I spend 10 minutes at a public charger as if I were filling a gas car).
The electric grid will be ready when it needs to be ready. Power companies aren’t going to just leave EVs on the table, even if they have to beg for money to upgrade.
There’s a post around here somewhere about a Chinese (BYD) EV for $15,000. I didn’t look at it, but that’s going to be entry level with few bells/whistles. Still, that’s cheaper than any US ICE vehicle I know of.
The electric grid will be ready when it needs to be ready
Indeed. If the grid could not expand and would be overloaded, it works also be impossible to add more houses, offices or businesses. But it’s no problem building those and connecting them to the grid, but EV would blow every fuse.
These complaints about EVs being too expensive are way out of date, now that China is pumping out hordes of cheap EVs that consumers like.
Even if the US doesn’t want to let in Chinese auto imports, the question remains: why are Chinese automakers able to bring down prices, but not US automakers? You can point to Chinese government subsidies, but the US also does industrial policy these days. One of Biden’s favourite talking points is how much money his government is putting into supporting US green manufacturing through the IRA.
why are Chinese automakers able to bring down prices
Because their economy is entering a deflationary spiral built off of 25%+ youth unemployment.
Yes, unemployment lowers labor costs severely. That’s… not a good thing or a strategy we’d want to replicate.
Too expensive
Charging infrastructure is terrible for road-trips. Many families can only afford 2 or 3 cars at best, and being forced into a 1-hour wait every 250 miles even in the best case is terrible.
Terrible trailer performance. EVs “secret” is hyper-efficiency with lightweight loads like typical driving. Its a good thing if our daily drive were replaced with EV. However, the range drops dramatically more than ICE/Diesel when under load: mountain / hill territory, drag from trailers, and rolling-resistance from higher weights all worsen EVs. Meanwhile, ICE actually increases in efficiency in these high-load circumstances. Trailers, Trucks, RVs will likely be ICE or at most Hybrid for the foreseeable future.
Terrible hotel infrastructure. Again for road-trips, but most vacation spots (beach houses, mountain lodges, hunting lodges, vacations at lakes, ski resorts etc. etc.) do NOT have enough chargers. So you can’t even charge at night when you get there.
Practically, the biggest obstacle to overcoming EV suppression is Tesla. They is mainly profitable through sales of carbon credits via various emissions offset schemes, which they sell to other manufacturers such that they can show required carbon offsets by just paying some money. A whole lot easier than upending their business model to actually produce EV’s, and creates a positive feedback loop where Tesla retains position as only significant EV game in town. The EV development right now is targeting China, not the US.
Too expensive, not enough charging stations, and potential grid issues. I knew these ICE bans were unlikely to take effect as nobody seems in a hurry to build out the infrastructure needed for massive adoption.
They will continue to not build infrastructure and in five years we’ll see this exact headline again. Self fulfilling excuses.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
In a concession to automakers and labor unions, the Biden administration intends to relax elements of one of its most ambitious strategies to combat climate change, limits on tailpipe emissions that are designed to get Americans to switch from gas-powered cars to electric vehicles, according to three people familiar with the plan.
Sensing an opening, former President Donald J. Trump, the Republican front-runner, has seized on electric cars, falsely warning the public that they “don’t work” and telling autoworkers that Mr. Biden’s policies are “lunacy” that he would extinguish on “the first day” of his return to the White House.
But he said in an interview that Mr. Biden’s climate policies, combined with record federal investment in renewable energy, would still help to reach the president’s goal of cutting the country’s greenhouse gas emissions in half by 2030.
Still, experts say it’s uncertain whether Mr. Biden can meet his twin goals of cutting the country’s greenhouse gas emissions in half by 2030 and eliminating them by 2050, a target that scientists say all nations must achieve to avoid the most catastrophic impacts of climate change.
In public comments it filed regarding the proposed rule, the United Auto Workers pressed the Biden administration to relax the compliance timeline so that it “increases stringency more gradually, and occurs over a greater period of time.” Union leaders repeated that request in discussions with senior White House officials, including Mr. Zaidi, over the past six months.
Last fall, when the union went on strike against Ford, General Motors and Stellantis, in part over fears about the industry’s transition to electric vehicles, Mr. Biden sought to assuage their concerns and became the first president to stand with workers on the picket line.
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P U B L I C T R A N S P O R T A T I O N
I don’t think I ever want an EV as a daily driver but I’d be down for a sport bike or dirt bike. Sustainable Battery disposal/recycling and figuring out some kind of trade in system for the 15k-20k lifespan of battery is something I’d like to see. There isn’t much of a resale market value for these EVs that is comparable to ICE vehicles either.
This is actually one of the reasons why I push PHEV right now.
Note that PHEV has roughly 1/5th to 1/10th the battery size of a full EV. While every PHEV is different (do your research), the Prius Prime 2024 is perhaps the most practical. The new model has ~40ish miles of all electric range, and a button that can put you in 100% EV mode even at highway driving (at severe costs to your acceleration however: 0-60 in 11+ seconds in pure EV mode, while 6.5 seconds in EV+ICE mode). Still, the “pure EV” mode works on the Prius Prime, as crappy an experience as it is. This isn’t true for all cars (ex: Honda Accord 2014 PHEV switches to 100% ICE on highway driving).
In any case, the Prius Prime proves that a 13.6kW-hr battery pack is sufficient to cover a daily commute up to 44mi (EPA rating all-electric range). No need to buy a 5x larger pack like a Tesla or a 18x larger pack like a Hummer EV.
I agree with you that PHEV is the sweet spot for some people like me. I go on road trips multiple times a year and until I can charge up in 5-10 minutes, I don’t see full EV as an option for my family. Also the lifespan of the batteries is a concern. You can have maintenance done on an engine to make it last as long as you want but batteries just need to be replaced at the end of their life. Eventually you reach the point where the battery replacement cost exceeds the cars value.
Not judging, just genuinely curious, why do you not want an EV as a daily driver?
It comes down to a couple different things… First, if something is wrong with it I have no clue how to fix it or where I would take it to get fixed. Second, I’m not really in the market for anything over 10k. Thirdly (I said a couple I know), I’m not sold that all the bugs have been worked out and the area around me doesn’t really have a lot of charging stations. It has always felt like a novelty or something a well off person would get to showcase their progressiveness lol
Ford, GM, and Chrysler: “not until we get guaranteed profits”
You know there is a solution to this stalling untill companies decide they are ready…
Unions don’t like them because it means they’ll lose jobs as well… I’ve been told that they need 1 person on the line to build an EV, and like 7 people to build ICE.
ShellMonkey@lemmy.socdojo.com 8 months ago
Every damn time, ‘we just need a few more years, don’t force us yet though, we’re not ready…’ this forever planning stage is going to kill the planet before anyone is ready to act.
Wooki@lemmy.world 8 months ago
I’m sorry to be the bearer of bad news; we are not going to solve the planet with rampant consumerism
ShellMonkey@lemmy.socdojo.com 8 months ago
Given I’m not sure if you mean ‘the problem of rampant consumerism’ or ‘not solving the problem via rampent consumerism’ I’ll put up thoughts on either front.
On the first, a sizable part of that could be reduced by returning to a ‘buy it for life’ mindset in our society. I always like to use an example of Grandma’s kitchen table. Some people have the nice oak piece that’s been passed through a few generations, scuffed and stained maybe, but as solid as ever. Many now though obtain the cheapest particle-board garbage they can from the local Walmart and see it as normal to have to replace it after a couple years. That disposable lifestyle doesn’t help anyone other than the retailers and producers of cheap useless junk, nobody is going to be looking to build family memories at some glorified card table.
On the second, no, people buying for the sake of buying isn’t going to solve things, but at least we can make the choices available less destructive overall. In some cases 1000 small actions are just what’s needed of no one thing can do it all.
almar_quigley@lemmy.world 8 months ago
It’ll be the states driving this forward again unfortunately.
littlebluespark@lemmy.world 8 months ago
I’m still waiting for my hoverboard and jetpack.