Submitted 10 months ago by youradhere@feddit.org to technology@lemmy.world
https://gizmodo.com/its-breathtaking-how-fast-ai-is-screwing-up-the-education-system-2000603100
That’s going to be great fun when the AI bubble pops and the subscription prices go up exponentially.
On the other hand, there have been other opinions about education that say it should be about making or researching something. Give a student a goal and let them figure it out using chatbots or whatever.
That sounds like a way to make a generation of students wholly reliant on AI. People are going to still need to know how to do stuff in the future and not just how to request the answers to things from somewhere else.
You sound like my teachers that bitched about calculators and the internet.
(Disclaimer: this is not a fully formed counter-argument to your statement, merely my thought-vomit).
As a kid growing up in the 90’s you wouldn’t believe the amount of times my parents and teachers vehemently insisted to me that I MUST do dictionary lookup drills because there’s no way I would just always have access to an electronic dictionary in my pocket. I was also told that I absolutely HAD to be fast at paper-based multiplication and long division. It’s not like I would just carry a calculator around with me everywhere I go, that would be insane!
If students did useful things, self directed things, were allowed to discover and create, can you imagine how ducking crazy that would be ? Imagine if we didn’t largely waste the bulk of everyone’s youth on boring 1800s style lecturing toiling in mass education factories ?
I guess everyone just gets a completely different education then…? The education system might have its issues, but providing a baseline bulk level of education to the entire population is not exactly straightforward.
I work in higher education making online courses. It’s really stressing everyone out.
Stressing out in what way? For the viability of your job being lost to this ai bullshit? For the outcomes of students who will just try to chatGPcheaT their way through everything?
Likely both. I used to be involved in creating educational material for employers. First, voiceover artists were replaced with shockingly low quality AI models. This was about two years ago. Training prices didn’t drop and no employers complained.
The industry experts we’d pay for consultation were increasingly replaced with ChatGPT queries. Information was sometimes wrong but the employers purchasing these trainings would catch and correct it (for free) in the proofing process. Prices stayed the same, employers still didn’t complain.
After launching trainings, we’d monitor engagement. When asking relatively simple questions that anyone who paid attention would be able to answer immediately, the average response time was initially about 2-3 minutes, then about 60-90s for subsequent questions. They were finding ChatGPT and using it to answer the questions. We shared these findings and, you guessed it, employers didn’t care.
Oh no, maybe teachers will have to put effort into their students beyond assigning homework that an AI can do.
Do you believe that the point of such assignments is because the teacher desires to read a couple dozen nigh-identical essays on the topic at hand?
This is my point exactly. They don’t desire that. Nor should they. And so they shouldn’t do that.
Oh, do your regional school districts let teachers design their own curriculum?
My point exactly. You won’t find good teachers in public education.
Congrats you are now the old person saying “young bad”
BRO, what an opinion. Love how out of touch and sarcastic you are. Really adds to the “I am not aware of the damage tech billionaires are vomiting out into society” vibe.
If the goal of school was to learn then people wouldn’t cheat the learning process.
When the goal is a piece of paper that makes you more likely to be employed then people will find the easiest path to get the piece of paper.
Congrats! You are now the tech bro implying “Chatgpt good”
Bet the squirt of dopamine yout got hitting send was orgasmic
I’m thinking the only way people will be able to do schoolwork without cheating now is going to be to make them sit in a monitored room and finish it there.
I really hope I’m dead before we have androids.
How is this kind of testing relevant anymore? Isn’t it creating an unrealistic situation, given the brave new world of AI everywhere?
What do you think testing is for? It’s to show what you know/have learned
Because it test what you actually retained, not what you can convince an AI to tell you.
Going to have generations of people unable to think analytically or creatively, and just as bad, entering fields that require a real detailed knowledge of the subject and they don’t. Going to see a lot of fuck ups in engineering, medicine, etc because of people faking it.
Why do you need to learn reams of facts when you can get an answer in the fraction of a second ? Seems pointless anyway.
Lmao. I’m guessing you don’t work in any of those fields. Got some bad news for ya bud. It’s been that way for decades. Probably centuries.
Don’t tell them it applies pretty damn perfectly to journalism and online commentators that both heavily shape their worldview even indirectly (because even if you don’t believe it your homies will and you get peer pressured) because they’ll go into a loop.
I am having flashbacks to the scene in Idiocracy where the doctor is talking about his wife.
She’s a pilot now.
…or will be in 480 years.
This has always seemed overblown to me. If students want to cheat on their coursework, who cares? As long as exams are given in a controlled environment, it’s going to be painfully obvious who actually studied the material and who had ChatGPT do it for them. Re-taking a course is not going to be fun or cheap.
Maybe I’m oversimplifying this, but it feels like proctored testing solves the entire problem.
Problem is, by the time they’ve failed the test, the opportunity for them to learn the content is largely passed.
The purpose of school is to educate and teach thinking skills. Tests are just a way to assess how effectively you and your students are achieving that goal. If something (in this case easy access to AI tools in the classroom) is disrupting that teaching/learning process, sure it’s useful to detect that through testing, but I’d doesn’t do anything really to solve the problem. Some fraction of kids are disciplined enough to recognize that skating by on classwork will lead to poor test results and possibly retaking classes, but generally those aren’t the kids you need to worry about anyway.
Who would you rather have as a surgeon? The one who did all their coursework by hand and graduated with Bs or the straight-A superstar who got a full ride to John Hopkins by using ChatGPT and just hiding their tracks better than the rest of the class? I’m not saying those are the only two options, but there’s definitely a reason we shouldn’t be so cavalier with cheating
NGL, it’s really f*cking depressing when you give students 30m to create something of their own imagination, and they do it in the first minute with chatGPT and spend the other 29m playing games the phone and asking to “go to the bathroom” whenever they notice someone in the hallway.
The excuses you hear when you do something so oppressive as to request they keep their phones in their own backpacks for the duration of the task.
Dunno Yeah I disagree with AI. I grew up without phones but they should not be used in schools.
I actually sometimes as my students to use their phones to produce presentations and such (AI permitted). I just think the rule needs to be no phones in sight otherwise, and the phone stays if you go to the bathroom.
You gave them a task, they used their imagination to apply it, in a different way than you expected, by using a new tool which is a non traditional method you asked for but the task still got completed. They still loosely completed the task 30 times ahead of schedule by using their imagination on how to constructively solve your problem, utilizing a tool in their imaginary bag.
I don’t think it’s wrecking the system, the system fails people everyday. I think it’s changing the traditional paradigm. Maybe for the better, maybe not. Time will tell. I think ChatGPT is a tool in its infancy. It’s changing the way minds think fundamentally like for isntance critical thinking skills decline by relying on “AI” but it frees up the mind to grow in other ways to adjust to the new paradigm.
I think the true point here is fear from breaking traditional values. Humans have never accelerated faster with current technology thats with or without LLM usage.
Holy fuck, we are so cooked.
This is such a concavebrained take. The point of exercises handed out in schools isn’t the accomplishment of the set tasks; it’s that students internalise the processes necessary to do the task themselves and thereby learn those skills.
Thus, giving away a task to a LLM is only “using their imagination on how to constructively solve [the] problem, utilising a tool in their imaginary bag” in the same way that bullying a nerd into doing the work for them used to be.
I think it’s changing the traditional paradigm. Maybe for the better, maybe not. Time will tell. I think ChatGPT is a tool in its infancy. It’s changing the way minds think fundamentally like for isntance critical thinking skills decline by relying on “AI” but it frees up the mind to grow in other ways to adjust to the new paradigm.
This is so obviously for the worse. Losing the ability to think critically isn’t “freeing up the mind to grow in other ways:” basic critical thought is a foundational prerequisite to fully developing as a person capable of participating in society in the current age in much the same way as basic literacy is. It’s limiting the mind from growing in any meaningful way.
And don’t get it twisted, you’re just saying this shit to be contrarian. I doubt you actually believe this development could be a good thing. Like come the fuck on, let’s say in ten years’ time you get into some kinda accident and need surgery. There is no way you’d would want your surgeon to be someone who ‘did’ most of their assessments in med school with a fucking chatbot. Who are you kidding???
You’re not wrong, but the difference is that they came up with a creative solution to avoid the task, not a creative solution to engage the task. If I ask them follow up questions to explain their thoughts and reasoning behind their own work, I get deer in the headlights.
Now, I think the tide is rising with AI and it’s sink or swim if you’re a teacher, so it’s better to just learn what AI is and how to leverage it no matter what people think of it, or if I’m even getting paid for my effort.
A different approach I’m considering is embracing AI for teenage groups and changing the format of the course entirely so there’s more interaction (incorporating AI) than production. I’ll be the first at my school to do it, but I’m also the only person there who could tell you what the fediverse is.
Because school is boring, that’s why.
Most people don’t need to learn beyond the fourth grade, especially because calculators and now chatGPT exist.
And I say this as someone who wasted his time all the way up to a Master’s degree just to show society I too followed the beaten path. It’s time I’ll never get back.
Good god, if you went through an entire education and don’t realize how fucked of a take that is I don’t know what to say. Go try again at a different school maybe?
Ngl. I bought a signal jammer for my wife to use in her classroom (after all, it said “for educational purposes only”) and the kids could never figure out why the signal sucked so bad in her classroom during class times. She never got caught using it and never had to worry about them being on their phones.
If there was an emergency, people would just call the front office and they could always reach her on the land line in the classroom.
Violating federal laws is awesome, everyone should do it.
Fuck YES (says a middle school teacher)
(after all, it said “for educational purposes only”)
The FCC hates this one simple trick
I can’t imagine dealing with a room full of kids, especially ones with phone addictions.
Well it’s better than them throwing things at each other like we used to do, I suppose.
I regularly advocate for banning phones from schools but people here in Lemmy (same on Reddit years ago) completely lose their shit with that idea, start talking how that’ll leave them defenseless in an emergency, how it is torture, how they absolutely can’t live without them
Not thirty years ago nobody had cellphones in school, they barely existed, and everything was fine, everyone was fine without and with cellphones I see so much shit going on. Yes, it’s the Future, kids need cellphones, but they also need to learn to be without cellphone, and they need to learn responsible use.
I mean, you could probably solve this shit by restricting the types of phones used to dumb phones. Phones only capable of texting and calls. Perhaps some basic access to school websites and Wikipedia too. Everything else default blacklisted.
This is survivorship bias. Many weren’t fine but you don’t get to hear from them today.
but people here in Lemmy (same on Reddit years ago) completely lose their shit with that idea
I’ve never seen anyone over 19 who was opposed to this idea. It’s obviously the right move. Phones don’t belong in school.
I mean, I was in high school when the cell phones were largely flip phones and that one nokia brick that could probably survive being run over by a tank and at that point the rule was “nobody gives a shit if it’s in your pocket/in your bag and on silent, but if I see it or if it’s making loud disruptive noises from wherever you’ve got it it’s going in my desk until the bell rings”. That still seems a reasonable middle ground in my opinion. That way, it’s still accessible enough in the event of an actual emergency but not usable otherwise.
Plenty of schools do that
Phones totally need to be reeled in. Stop making a Do it all device. Self discipline and responsibility have been guard railed for years. This 100 percent.
I worked in a school in Asia that actually banned students from bringing their phones to school. One year there was an earthquake in the morning that caused all the trains to stop for half a day while they checked the rails. We were all on our way to the school, got stranded, and some had to walk for hours to get back home. The school got a few calls from parents and the policy was changed the very next week. Now students can bring their phones, but they need to be turned in at the front office when they arrive.
One girl forgot to do it once, so she put her phone her locker. Another earthquake set off the warning alarm system and her phone went off in the hallway. Later that day I saw her getting lectured hard by the staff and the poor thing was in tears. She was actually a good student, so it was weird seeing her in that scenario.
Anyway, I wouldn’t mind the idea of students handing in phones at the front desk, but I was allowed to pack a cd player, a Nokia, and a variety of other devices around my school as a kid. I don’t really see smartphones as being much different, just so long as they are being responsible with them.
Outright banning them from schools is wrong imo, but if I had to put my phone in a locked box every class, I would’ve lived. I just think banning them outright is bad for needing to contact parents, especially for kids like me who had after school activities often.
My only issue I had with HS teachers were the ones who bitched about people having headphones/earbuds in during class. Obviously I don’t have them in during instruction or group work as that would be disrespectful, but if you’re not at the front of the room talking and we’re doing individual work, I want to have my earbuds in. I had a study block teacher who was so fucking anal about phones and earbuds, when it is literally a fucking break class to do whatever the fuck you want/need to do.
I just really like having music or background noise while doing work.
honestly a few years ago I didn’t agree with it, but now things are enshittifying so much that it really seems to be the better option now. it’ll unfortunately bar even those from using their phones who would use it for other things than mindless scrolling, using ai chatbots and playing microtransaction and ad filled games, but for the whole class and the whole generation it would be better in the end.
Is there not a way to plan the assignment so that it’s not doable in 1m with ChatGPT?
• Require students to cite their sources
• Require students to show their working
• Ask students questions related to the process of a given task during class
• For things like media analysis, require them to do it with a pencil and paper without the use of computers where possible
• Treat the use of LLMs as an act of academic plagiarism
All of these are things that schools should already be doing holy shit
If your school is not supporting teachers with a cell phone policy you should try to find another place to teach and tell them exactly why when you leave.
One proposed Florida law I actually agree with is: phones off during school - all of school, including between classes and recess. Possible exception for lunchtime. Definite exception for when the teacher is specifically using the phones as a fully engaged teaching tool, which should be no more than 20% of overall classroom time, but definitely could be used as a way to “grab attention.”
I get wanting to be able to track little Ginny and make sure she got to school O.K. and know when to go meet the bus to pick her up.
There should definitely be “Cybersafety” education in our schools, and the phone as a teaching tool definitely makes sense there.
Having AI write the first draft of your assignment can be a good lesson too, but the remaining 28 minutes should be spent understanding and refining what the AI has given you.
I was uninterested in school because nothing was ever done to make me interested, even at home.
Later in life I was diagnosed with ADHD and now I’m a software developer. Sadly school isn’t for everybody and I just thought I was stupid and lazy, it turns out I was fine I just needed the right help.
Can’t you just make them turn off the computers/phones and do it by hand?
I teach at a community college. I see a lot of AI nonsense in my assignments.
So much so that I’m considering blue book exams for the fall.
I have a friend who has taught Online university writing for the past 10 years. Her students are now just about 100% using AI - her goal isn’t to get them to stop, it’s to get them to recognize what garbage writing is and how to fix it so it isn’t garbage anymore.
For anyone who is also not from the US:
A blue book exam is a type of test administered at many post-secondary schools in the United States. Blue book exams typically include one or more essays or short-answer questions. Sometimes the instructor will provide students with a list of possible essay topics prior to the test itself and will then choose one or let the student choose from two or more topics that appear on the test.
The story, which involves interviews with a host of current undergraduates, is full of anecdotes like the one that involves Chungin “Roy” Lee, a transfer to Columbia University who used ChatGPT to write the personal essay that got him through the door
Students are turning in work they didn’t perform as their own? How novel!
The cynical view of America’s educational system—that it is merely a means by which privileged co-eds can make the right connections, build “social capital,” and get laid—is obviously on full display here.
Cynical? I call that realistic. That’s what privileged co-eds have been using it for the past 100 years.
more like 200
TBH, I'd AI can screw up the education system so fast then it is the fault in the education system. AI is bad, but our education system is not good either.
One of my professors had an AI policy. Using AI for an outline or to find resources was okay, as long as it was cited with the exact prompt used. I think having rules for how to use AI on her assignments actually cut down on use compared to professors who outright banned it.
Student: AI, write my thesis for me!
Prof: AI, was this thesis written by AI?
AI: yes, of course, you poor human!
Prof: …shrug…
Artisian@lemmy.world 10 months ago
Honest question: how do we measure critical thinking and creativity in students?
If we’re going to claim that education is being destroyed (and show we’re better than our great^n grandparents complaining about the printing press), I think we should try to have actual data instead of these think-pieces and anecdata from teachers. Every other technology that the kids were using had think-pieces and anecdata.
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 10 months ago
The only serious method of evaluating critical thinking and creativity is through peer evaluation. But that’s a subjective scale thick with implicit bias, not a clean and logical discrete answer. It’s also not something you can really see in the moment, because true creativity and critical thinking will inevitably produce heterodox views and beliefs.
I agree that we’re flush with think-pieces. Incidentally, the NYT Op-Ed section has doubled in size over the last few years.
But that’s sort of the rub. You can’t get a well-defined answer to the question “Is Our Children Creative-ing?” because we only properly know it by the fruits of the system. Comically easy to walk into a school with a creative writing course and scream about how this or that student is doing creativity wrong. Comically easy to claim a school is Marxist or Fascist or too Pro/Anti-Religion or too banal and mainstream by singling out a few anecdotes in order to curtail the whole system.
The fundamental argument is that this kind of liberal arts education is wasteful. It doesn’t yield real tangible economic value. So we need to abolish it in order to become more efficient.
And that’s what we’re creating. A society that is laser-focused on making economic numbers go up, without stopping to ask whether a larger GDP actually benefits anyone living in the country where all this fiscal labor is performed.
Artisian@lemmy.world 10 months ago
I think it’s fine for this to be poorly defined; what I want is something aligned with reality beyond op-eds. Qualitative evidence isn’t bad; but I think it needs to be aggregated instead of anecdoted. Humans are real bad at judging how the kids are doing (complaints like the OP are older than liberal education, no?); I don’t want to continue the pattern. A bunch of old people worrying too much about students not reading shakespear in classes is how we got the cancel culture moral panic - I’d rather learn from that mistake.
A handful of thoughts: There are longitudinal studies that interview kids at intervals; are any of these getting real weird swings? Some kids have AI earlier; are they much different from similar peers without? Where’s the broad interviews/story collection from the kids? Are they worried? How would they describe their use and their peers use of AI?
Artisian@lemmy.world 10 months ago
As far as I can tell, the strongest data is wrt literacy and numeracy, and both of those are dropping linearly with previous downward trends from before AI, am I wrong? We’re also still seeing kids from lockdown, which seems like a much more obvious ‘oh that’s a problem’ than the AI stuff.