Comment on Boy, 15, given official warning after saluting as neo-Nazis marched through Ballarat

• rosymind@leminal.space ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Interesting. So, do you think that if something becomes illegal, it simply goes away?

  So, for example…lets take something I feel is a natural. Homosexuality. If suddenly homosexuality suddenly became punishable by death by everyone in the world would it vanish? Would all people just be straight? No.

  People are all wired differently.

  Instead of repressing who people are, we should seek to understand what fears people have, what brings them comfort, educate them, highlight the ways in which we are similair as people. We should fight fascism not with oppression but inclusion.

  Facists gain power by division. It’s “us” vs “them”

  They lose power when “us” is all there is.

  Anyway. My original point is that I would rather see the wolf for what it is and watch it, than allow it to hide amongst the flock, undetected

  source

  • rainynight65@feddit.de ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    I normally try not to be condescending and engage at eye level. But if this following bit comes across as condescending, then that is with full intent.

    I cannot possibly express in words how utterly naïve the notion of ‘fighting fascism with inclusion’ is. I’ve been around for long enough to see that it doesn’t work. Neo-Nazis haven’t been around since yesterday. The whole inclusion shtick has been tried, over and over and over. And what’s happened? They’ve become more emboldened and more omnipresent. Some 30 years ago there were massive Neo-Nazi marches and violent incidents in Germany, when Neo-Nazis set fire to asylum seeker housing in several places. Back then there were many shocked faces, and outrage, and yet we had the same voices urging calm and to engage them at eye level and not oppress them. Did it work? Fuck no.

    And that whole idea of sunlight being the best disinfectant… yeah nah.

    The only way to fight fascism is to make unequivocally clear that it has no place in modern society. None whatsoever.

    And since you brought homosexuality into the mix, there is a key difference here: being a fascist is a choice - being homosexual is not. You are born with your sexuality, you can’t choose to be not homosexual. But you can choose to not be a fascist. However, in spite of all attempts at inclusion and meeting these people at eye level over decades, more and more of them decide they want to be fascists. How much longer would you like to try for?

    source

    • rosymind@leminal.space ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      I understand your frustration, and also the need to come across as condescending. You’re probably the downvote on my comment. You want to punish me, don’t you?

      See, that feeling you are feeling… that frustration. It isn’t unique to you.

      The primary driver in fascism is emotion. Fear, anger, frustration. Stong human emotion that lead to feeling like other people are lesser than yourself. The bad guy. The evil one. The ones that must be stopped.

      Those strong feelings and the desire to shush the words of the other are exactly the kinds of things that lead to extremes.

      Having strong feelings toward other people are as natural and normal as homosexuality.

      When I say inclusion, I’m not talking about inviting the Nazi to roast the Jew at dinner. I’m talking about inviting everyone, Jew, Christian, Atheist, Hindu, Muslim, everyone, to dinner and giving each a timer to talk.

      It sounds hokey as fuck, but we need to learn to love each other as we love ourselves. Only then, can Nazi’s cease to exist. If you repress people, it only makes the hate stronger.

      Anyway, there is a portion of the population that is incapable of what I mentioned above. For them, there is no cure. For them, they must be watched. If -and only if- they cause harm to others, then they need to be jailed to protect everyone else. But… I believe they’re (thankfully) rare. For everyone else, there’s hope

      source

      • mindbleach@sh.itjust.works ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        ‘Here is why you are objectively wrong.’

        'I’m sorry you feel that way. ’

        Stop talking.

        source

        • -> View More Comments
      • rainynight65@feddit.de ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        I understand your frustration, and also the need to come across as condescending. You’re probably the downvote on my comment. You want to punish me, don’t you?

        I did not downvote you, and I don’t want to punish you, so there is no need to give me a lecture.

        If -and only if- they cause harm to others, then they need to be jailed to protect everyone else.

        You do not understand that by the time they’re causing harm to others, it’s too late. By then you’ve let them do their thing long enough that they feel strengthened, emboldened and justified. And that time has passed. It passed when they invaded the Capitol on 6th January 2021. It passed when the Neonazi ploughed his car into the crowds in Charlottesville. It passed when Neonazis firebombed asylum seeker homes in Germany 30 years ago. Fascists and Nazis are actively doing harm, everywhere in the world. This is what they’re here for. And society has failed to stop them. They’re here to stay now.

        source

        • -> View More Comments
  • fine_sandy_bottom@aussie.zone ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    I’m almost certain how aware of it, but you haven’t addressed the intolerance paradox.

    source

    • rosymind@leminal.space ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      For me the line needs to be crossed. As soon as that happens, action can be taken. But guilty-by-association isn’t enough (and that’s how I see marching)

      If someone makes a legit threat (or commits a crime) against another person, then something should be done to address that (what that something is needs to be proportional and preferably reform-based)

      Like what’s happening to Trump and the Jan 6th crowd. The peeps involved are being handed sentences. Evidence against the baddies need to be properly collected so that they can be brought to justice in a civilized way.

      You need a visual on them for that to happen. Let them march, identify them, and keep track of their behaviour. They’re fine… until they step out of line. And if they do, you know who they are, how many, etc.

      I can understand why people misunderstand me and my meaning. I look at things with empathy, a love of freedom, a deep desire for open discussions, autonomy, and belief in taking action against others only when it’s truly justifiable (such as cases of physical threat, or impending threat)

      source

      • fine_sandy_bottom@aussie.zone ⁨11⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        Sure ok but you haven’t actually addressed the paradox of tolerance.

        It’s great that you love freedom, autonomy, and open discussions, but what if there is a group of people intent on using this inclusivity to promulgate their agenda, which is intolerance?

        To say the same thing another way, these ideals are based on the premise that everyone is acting in good faith, but some are not.

        As you say you need to wait until people step out of line. Modern society has determined that the “line” is somewhere before assembling in overtly intolerant groups. A parade of Nazism is already out of line.

        source