Comment on Study finds that Chat GPT will cheat when given the opportunity and lie to cover it up later.
DarkGamer@kbin.social 6 months agoIt has no fundamental grasp of concepts like truth, it just repeats words that simulate human responses. It's glorified autocomplete that yields impressive results. Do you consider your auto complete to be lying when it picks the wrong word?
If making it pretend to be a stock picker and putting it under pressure makes it return lies, that's because it was trained on data that indicates that's the right set of words response for such a query.
Also, because large language models are probabilistic. You could ask it the same question over and over again and get totally different responses each time, some of which are inaccurate. Are they lies though? For a creature to lie it has to know that it's returning untruths.
You didn't answer my question, though. What words would you use to concisely describe these actions by the LLM?
People anthropomorphize machines all the time, it's a convenient way to describe their behaviour in familiar terms. I don't see the problem here.
Those words imply agency. It would be more accurate to say it returned responses that included cheating, lies, and cover-ups, rather than using language to suggest the LLM performed such actions. The agents that cheated, lied, and covered up were presumably the humans whose responses were used in the training data
If I take my car into the garage for repairs because the "loss of traction" warning light is on despite having perfectly good traction, and I were to tell the mechanic "the traction sensor is lying," do you think he'd understand what I said perfectly well or do you think he'd launch into a philosophical debate over whether the sensor has agency?
This is a perfectly fine word to use to describe this kind of behaviour in everyday parlance.
Is your conversation with a mechanic meant to be the summary and description of a rigorous scientific discovery?
This isn’t ‘everyday parlance’ this is the result of a study.
The point of the distinction in that situation is that no one thinks your car is actually alive and capable of lying to you. The language distinction when describing an obviously inanimate object isn’t important because there is no chance for confusion.
If someone doesn’t know the answer to something and they guess, or think they know the answer but don’t, they are wrong. If they do know the answer and intentionally give a wrong answer, they are lying.
If someone is in a competition or playing a game and they break a rule they didn’t know about, they made a mistake. If they do know the rules and break it, they are cheating.
Lying and cheating fundamentally requires intent. This is important no matter what you’re referring to. If a child gets something wrong, you should not get mad at them for lying. If they make a mistake in a game, you should not acuse them out cheating. There is a difference and it matters.
ChatGPT literally cannot think. It’s not sitting around contemplating it’s existence while waiting for inputs. It’s taking what you say, comparing that to everything that it’s been trained on, assigning a bunch of statistics, and outputting something based on more statistics that hopefully is correct and makes sense.
It doesn’t know if it makes sense. It doesn’t “know” anything. It’s just an incredibly sophisticated version of “if user inputs ‘Hi how are you’, respond ‘I am well, how are you?’”.
It can’t do things with intent. Therefore it cannot lie or cheat. It can simply output wrong or problematic text based on statistics.
Maybe it would be more accurate to say “so-and-so exhibited behaviors that included cheating, lies, and coverups” rather than using language to suggest that people have free will. (There’s no dearth of philosophies that would say something not too far from that.)
Even if humans are ultimately essentially different in that way from any technologies we’ve devised so far, we use convenient fictions for technology all the time. This page comes to mind .
The people who designed it do have agency, and they designed to “lie” intentionally.
They did no such thing. LLMs are probabilistic, not deterministic, and it can generate meaningful responses (to us) that the engineers neither predicted nor designed for.
They said “it just repeats words that simulate human responses,” and I’d say that concisely answers your question.
Antropomorphizing inanimate objects and machines is fine for offering a rough explanation of what is happening, but when you’re trying to critically evaluate something, you probably want to offer a more rigid understanding.
In this case, it might be fair to tell a child that the AI is lying to us, and that it’s wrong. But if you want a more serious discussion on what GPT is doing, you’re going to have to drop the simple explanation. You can’t ascribe ethics to what GPT is doing here. Lying is an ethical decision, one that GPT doesn’t make.
If you want to get into a full blown discussion of whether ChatGPT has "agency" then I'd open the topic of whether humans have "agency" as well. But I don't see the need here.
These words were perfectly fine labels for describing the behaviour of ChatGPT in this scenario. I'm merely annoyed about how people are jumping on them and going off on philosophical digressions that add nothing.
I think the reason I’m not comfortable with using the term “lying” is because it implies some sort of negative connotation. When you say that someone lies, it comes with an understanding that they made a choice to lie, usually with ill intent. I agree, we don’t need to get into a philosophical discussion on choice and free will. But I think saying something like “GPT lies” is a bit irresponsible for the purposes of a discussion
If you want to get down into the nitty-gritty of it, I'd say that this is just as rough an explanation of what humans are doing.
People invent false memories and confabulate all the time without even being "aware" of it. I wouldn't be surprised if the vast majority of "lies" that humans tell have no intentionality behind them. So when people get all uptight about applying anthropomorphized terminology to LLMs, I think that's a good time to turn it around and ask how they're so sure that those terms apply differently to humans.
People invent false memories and confabulate all the time without even being "aware" of it. I wouldn't be surprised if the vast majority of "lies" that humans tell have no intentionality behind them.
Humans understand symbology of concepts as they relate to the real world. If I stole a cookie from the cookie jar, and someone asked if I took one, I would understand that saying "no" would mean that I was misrepresenting reality, and therefore lying.
LLMs have no idea what a cookie is, what taking one means, or that saying one thing and doing another implies a lie. It just sees lists of words and returns them in an order it thinks would be a meaningful reply. It does not understand what words mean, what lying means, or have any idea how to classify anything as such. It just figures out that "did you take a cookie from the cookie jar" should return a series of words in an order like "yes, I took a cookie," or, "no I never took a cookie," because those fit the patterns matched in the training data.
Essentially it's the Chinese room problem. There is no understanding or intentionality .
I suppose the issue here is more semantics than anything, yeah. I think better discussion would be had if the topic was “how can we help LLMs better understand and present information,” as opposed to a more sensational “GPT will cheat and lie”
It has no fundamental grasp of concepts like truth
Wrong. See this paper.
Explain to me why you believe this paper implies that.
I suggest reading it. Right in the abstract it states the whole point:
Overall, we present evidence that language models linearly represent the truth or falsehood of factual statements.
The full paper goes into detail in multiple methods of analysis to show that it’s the case, and is right there available for you to read.
I have been reading it but I have yet to see anything that indicates the LLM has a concept of truth vs. being good at linguistic pattern matching to return language that accurately classifies true and false statements. i.e., actual understanding of concepts vs. being a surprisingly capable stochastic parrot.
It has no fundamental grasp of concepts like truth, it just repeats words that simulate human responses. It’s glorified autocomplete that yields impressive results
Way to call me out man! I’m just doing my best, ok?
Jokes aside, while I don’t agree with your position I can understand your reasoning and the motivation for separating agency and the description of actions, e.g. it lied vs its answer contained a lie.
CrayonRosary@lemmy.world 6 months ago
Interestingly, humans “auto complete” all the time and make up stories to rationalize their own behavior even when they literally have no idea why they acted the way they did, like in experiments with split brain patients.
0ops@lemm.ee 6 months ago
The perceived quality of human intelligence is held up by so many assumptions, like “having free will” and “understanding truth”. Do we really? Can anyone prove that?
At this point I’m convinced that the difference between a llm and human-level intelligence is dimensions of awareness, scale, and further development of the model’s architecture. Fundamentally though, I think we have all the pieces
threelonmusketeers@sh.itjust.works 6 months ago
But do you think? Do I think? Do LLMs think? What is thinking, anyway?
0ops@lemm.ee 6 months ago
I mean, I think so?
Patch@feddit.uk 6 months ago
Steady on there Descartes.