Didn’t you hear? China’s been one gigantic people’s union since 1949. That’s the whole point of Communism. As you can see, it’s working swimmingly well.
Zephorah@discuss.online 2 months ago
China needs unions.
MasterBlaster@lemmy.world 2 months ago
josemf@lemmy.world 2 months ago
Chinas communist party is as communist as trump is a democratic leader.
Or as our German „Christian party“ is christian…
just_an_average_joe@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 months ago
Christianity: love thy neighbour German christianity party: the immigrants are ruining our cityscapes by their presence
MasterBlaster@lemmy.world 2 months ago
Sounds like American Evangelism. I bet they coordinate.
ThirdConsul@lemmy.zip 2 months ago
Tiananmen square protests were (also) against introduction of capitalism to China, so… you know… (jacobin.com/…/tiananmen-square-worker-organizatio…)
MasterBlaster@lemmy.world 2 months ago
I was implying nothing about any other type of societal organization. However, since you mention it, I will point out that Capitalism (which is an economic, not political philosophy) can become horrific for the same reasons Communism becomes horrific - People. Communism was a response to naked, mercantilist Capitalism. Marx’s heart was in the right place, but he was describing a Utopia.
I think Democracy (in its many forms) designed with checks and balances is a viable answer to the problem. It ain’t magic, though. People still need to ensure it remains balanced. We’ve been having some trouble with that lately. It took fifty years of planning for the authoritarians to get us here. It’s a good sign it was so difficult, but now we have to work hard to fix the mess.
Alcoholicorn@mander.xyz 2 months ago
Marx’s heart was in the right place, but he was describing a Utopia
ThirdConsul@lemmy.zip 2 months ago
I think Democracy (in its many forms) designed with checks and balances is a viable answer to the problem
Yeah, you wish. Electoralism will always work in favour of the wealthy class. Even damn ancient Greeks knew that en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sortition
KyuubiNoKitsune@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 months ago
Tell me you don’t know what communism is and can’t recognise a dictatorship under the guise of communism without telling me you don’t know what communism is.
I imagine that you’re from the US? If so, it’s understandable. Dr. Strangelove was what opened my eyes to how demonised it is and how misguided people in the US are to its true ideology and meaning.
The USSR, where the gov controlled most of the means of production, is the antithesis of communism.
entropicdrift@lemmy.sdf.org 2 months ago
Sarcasm. The comment you replied to was being facetious. Obviously things are not going swimmingly. Use your context clues.
MasterBlaster@lemmy.world 2 months ago
Thank you for the assist. You are correct. I made the fatal assumption that most people discussing such things would have the context of Mao, the long march, the various purges, the decades of poverty, the suppression and outright murder of minorities under their belt and would recognize that the statement was so obviously false that it could only be taken as sarcasm. Unfortunately, I didn’t account for people having arrogance and a sense of other people being ignorant morons by default.
KyuubiNoKitsune@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 months ago
Yeah no, sounds more like a dig at communism, ya know, the usual rhetoric, hey, look at this dictatorship, as you can clearly see, communism doesn’t work
MasterBlaster@lemmy.world 2 months ago
Oh, I forgot to address the Dr. Strangelove reference. Did you know that was parody and sharp criticism of not just The United States, but of the power structures of the whole (first) world at the time? If that kind of criticism were made in the U.S.S.R. or China, Cuba, etc., of their leadership, the film would be banned and everyone involved would be imprisoned or disappeared. We’re allowed to criticize stupidity in leadership over here (for the moment). We believe it is a useful tool to try to make things better, or at least a bit more sane.
MasterBlaster@lemmy.world 2 months ago
sigh. I know what communism is. I also know it’s never been implemented in real life and never will be due to the nature of a subset of humans inflicted with various personality traits like Narcissism, Psychopathy, and Sociopathy… not to mention simple greed and basic envy.
I find it interesting that you first assigned to me the characteristics of ignorance and arrogance, and then pegged me to a certain nationality, thus revealing your uninformed bias against an entire nation containing over 300 million people - many of whom probably fled whichever morally superior country you call home - simply for living there.
Now, as for the assertion that government control of the means of production is the antithesis of communism, I give you first a description of Karl Marx’s vision:
Karl Marx envisioned communal ownership on a large scale through the abolition of private property, particularly in the means of production, advocating for these assets to be owned collectively by society. He believed this would lead to a classless society where resources are distributed based on need rather than profit.
Now, has it ever crossed your mind how this could possibly be implemented? I mean when you literally have millions of people collectively owning everything and therefore whatever is needed must be somehow made available wherever it is needed. Where will things be stored, and who will manage it? Who will ensure nothing is stolen from the people? Who will ensure item or resource “A” is transited from somewhere to the place it is needed? Word of mouth? Telegraph? What if nobody feels like manning the telegraph or decides not to relay the message to the next person? Heck - how do they know who the next person is?
In any sufficiently large group of people, some form of “government” has to exist merely to facilitate meeting the needs of the people being governed. So, I put it to you that the U.S.S.R. was in fact “implementing communism” by being the “people’s government” and thus, by their logic, everything is “owned” by the government. They have to know where it is, how to protect it, how to ensure there is enough of it to meet needs, etc… Unfortunately “power corrupts”. Or in the case of the Red revolution, it decapitates a revolution for freedom and democracy the moment it wins power and takes its place.
phoenixz@lemmy.ca 2 months ago
Oh I’m sure that’ll go perfectly well in China!
Maybe ask some students on how well that went when they protested on some big square there…
DeathByBigSad@sh.itjust.works 2 months ago
Tbf they did protest against the so-called “zero covid” policy and the government sort of gave in.
Zoot@reddthat.com 2 months ago
Was that before or after they welded a bunch of apartment complex doors closed?
phoenixz@lemmy.ca 2 months ago
You know the answer already, but for those that don’t: after.
Zephorah@discuss.online 2 months ago
I’m aware. I still think they’re the country most in need of labor unions.
MasterBlaster@lemmy.world 2 months ago
Oh, you were serious! Well, I think what they need is Democracy first, then unions. Communism theoretically eliminates the need for unions, but the reality is that it’s just a dictatorship. Unions in China would likely either be co-opted by the Communist party through subterfuge, or through “reeducating” the misguided leadership and defining the unions - thus landing them right where they are, with a new bureaucracy.
Unions represent the spirit of the checks and balances envisioned in the U.S. Constitution. It is only by being of near equal power to the company that employees can negotiate for fair compensation and treatment. Without that, they’re just resources.
PissingIntoTheWind@lemmy.world 2 months ago
They were manipulated by CIA plants that were murdering Chinese army soldiers. So. There’s that part of the story that caused the states response.
wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 2 months ago
Username checks out.
Tankies will always find any excuse to say China can do no wrong, and if they do it’s the west’s fault…
PissingIntoTheWind@lemmy.world 2 months ago
I mean. If labor unions killed people. Like they did during some of the coal mine riots. It gives the police and at times military freedoms to retaliate.
I grew up where the sheriff of my county killed 25 people in a single day before miner unions were allowed to exist.
Look up the Williamsport Mine Field Riots. They treated these people like animals. Just like the CCP treats their lower workers.
I’m not a tankie. I just know what happened on the ground that led up to the violence. I was in a masters program for counter terror.
joyjoy@lemmy.zip 2 months ago
[deleted]MasterBlaster@lemmy.world 2 months ago
Hey, how come you didn’t get the snide arrogant insults for saying the same thing I did? I’m jealous! ;-)
wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz 2 months ago
“But China is a communist utopia!!! It’s a dictatorship of the proletariat! Any criticism of the CCP is western propaganda!!!”
-tankies
MisterFrog@lemmy.world 1 month ago
My least favourite argument is them pointing to the reduction in poverty.
Like, I could say the same for capitalism. Which I won’t because capitalism needs to be abolished, but just “there was a massive reduction in poverty therefore system good” is stupid.
Tankies aren’t socialists in my eyes because socialism necessarily needs to be democratic control by the people.
Zephorah@discuss.online 2 months ago
We’ve all seen some of the cool elements on RedHat. I especially like the local farmer trucks rolling through towns with fresh veggies. And watching how much easier it is to grow tea there than in my backyard.
But let’s not play pretend.
DeathByBigSad@sh.itjust.works 2 months ago
People in China really need to do what their anthem says:
起来，不愿做奴隶的人们 (Arise, those who refuse to be slaves)
KeenFlame@feddit.nu 2 months ago
Thank you for this