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Comment on They say word-of-mouth marketing is the most effective form of marketing. What games did you (not) enjoy that came well-recommended by friends to you, and why did they recommend it to you?

Kolanaki@pawb.social ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

Probably not entirely on topic, but I ignored Dark Souls for a long time even with tons of recommendations from people I know share my tastes because the main thing they all said was that it was super hard.

It wasn’t being hard that made me ignore it but that from watching it, I knew it was just pattern recognition, which isn’t all that hard.

But now it’s my favorite genre. Because, yeah, it is pattern recognition in a 1v1 fight; but the layout of a room, the placement of the enemies and traps, and what those enemies snd traps are make so much more of a difference in the difficulty. It’s so much more satisfying somehow to learn the whole game and conquer it than just memorizing when to dodge and attack bosses.

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yermaw@sh.itjust.works ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
+1 for dark souls. It just felt like playing Space Ace all over again

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Cethin@lemmy.zip ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
I totally agree. It isn’t that hard, and honestly I think the players ruined the game for a lot of people with that idea. A lot of people will hit a boss they can’t defeat and resign themselves to trying to grind out a win, hearing the game is hard and this is just the way it is.

In reality, the game provides all the tools you need to win. You just have to pay attention and find them. If you’re struggling with a boss you aren’t supposed to grind it until you win. You’re supposed to go and get stronger. Level your player and gear, and find new items to help you. Maybe even find a path around them.

The game is easy, but struggling players think they’re struggling because the game wants them to, because of the reputation. It doesn’t. It wants you to explore.

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- CancerMancer@sh.itjust.works ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  These people don’t seem to learn the lesson the game teaches you right from the start by having the asylum demon stomp your ass until you figure out you should try a different path.
  
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- Katana314@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Counterpoint: Dark Souls is hard, because it gives a lot of options from the get go, and no information on which ones will be approachable or not. NO other major Soulslike I’ve played does this in the way DS did.
  
  It also relies very hard on death alone as a teaching tool even when it says nothing. Players don’t see “You died. This boss is too tough! Maybe you should go back and upgrade your weapons.” They just see “You Died.” and interpret “Should have dodged that 87th swing!”
  
  Worse, it has BAD lessons through the lost souls system. It makes sense as a pressure tool to make you fear death, but it teaches new players the wrong thing: For players to immediately beeline for the spot of their death without considering exploration, build changes, etc.
  
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  - Cethin@lemmy.zip ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    
    Counterpoint: Dark Souls is hard, because it gives a lot of options from the get go, and no information on which ones will be approachable or not. NO other major Soulslike I’ve played does this in the way DS did.
    
    I disagree with this. I think Dark Souls does tell you which are approachable or not. It’s just not as obvious as other games. Some games will have a sign for the player that says “this path is dangerous” but DS doesn’t. It has characters talk about venturing into the catacombs. It has characters point out the aquaduct is the path to the first (and at the time the only you know of) Bell of Awakening. It tucks the elevator into New Londo behind the bonfire, where stuff will be later but you won’t see yet. It also tells you a lot about locations in item descriptions.
    
    Most games talk to the player. FS talks to the character almost always. It’s less obvious to the player, but it makes the world feel richer. It doesn’t hold the player’s hand though.
    
    It also relies very hard on death alone as a teaching tool even when it says nothing. Players don’t see “You died. This boss is too tough! Maybe you should go back and upgrade your weapons.” They just see “You Died.” and interpret “Should have dodged that 87th swing!”
    
    Yeah, I don’t know how to fix this without speaking to the player. I guess they could take the typical Crestfallen Warrior character, but instead of getting depressed and dying he upgrades his kit and talks about how upgrading helped him overcome a challenge?
    
    Worse, it has BAD lessons through the lost souls system. It makes sense as a pressure tool to make you fear death, but it teaches new players the wrong thing: For players to immediately beeline for the spot of their death without considering exploration, build changes, etc.
    
    I agree with this. I think the need to have an infinite homeward bone item from the start. There should be a way to return to your bonfire once you recover, because yeah, sometimes people get stuck in FOMO mode and can’t give up a few souls. Once you’re used to the games it becomes obvious the souls are next to worthless and to not worry about it. You can always farm more. But for the struggling new player I agree, it re-enforces a playstyle.
    
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    Katana314@lemmy.world ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    
    I disagree with this. I think Dark Souls does tell you which are approachable or not. It’s just not as obvious as other games. Some games will have a sign for the player that says “this path is dangerous” but DS doesn’t. It has characters talk about venturing into the catacombs. It has characters point out the aquaduct is the path to the first (and at the time the only you know of) Bell of Awakening. It tucks the elevator into New Londo behind the bonfire, where stuff will be later but you won’t see yet. It also tells you a lot about locations in item descriptions.
    
    That’s…false.
    
    The very first NPC you find at Firelink Shrine tells you there are two bells - one above, and one far below. It strongly implies both are equal options. There are at least 3 ways out of Firelink Shrine; one happens to go below, just like your friend the NPC said, to New Londo.
    
    For players still acclimating to the basics of the combat, New Londo is a terrible novice experience. It requires perfectly tight positioning on teensy platforms barely visible through the water, and relies on limited items to even make a single attempt through the ghost-ridden area. That is a ton of mechanics that would be fine to slowly introduce players to, but it’s like putting the “Allspice Turducken while in a tornado” level of Overcooked first.
    
    Then you’re talking about the Catacombs? The area whose entrance has infinitely respawning skeletons? Give up, man.
    
    Dark Souls’ failure isn’t talking through NPCs - dozens of games that give your character a radio do just that. It’s from literally lying to you with misleading tripe and having no interest in any form of teaching - be it Half-Life 2’s nonverbal teaching or any verbally direct form. I had to play games by other devs, imitating the better parts of their formula, to learn FromSoft is just uniquely TERRIBLE at it.
    
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rozodru@piefed.social ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
I was the same with the Dark Souls games. I just had no interest in them because they just looked way too punishing.

Then I discovered the lore. I’m a huge lore nerd. I mean I absolutely love Warhammer 40k and I’ve never played it and don’t know how to play it. I don’t have any of the minitures but man the lore for that is awesome. It was the same for the Dark Souls games. I just stumbled across a video by that VatiiVidya guy and I was hooked. Now I wanted to play and just pick up everything and read the tiny bits of lore attached to every item in the games and then piece together this universe.

Dark Souls 3 being my favourite. That story once you discover what’s REALLY happening is amazing. The lore for DS3 really turns the whole playing experience on its head. Suddenly you go from thinking you’re the good guy trying to save this fucked up world to realizing that “wait, am I the baddie?” Like you have to return these guys to their thrones but you begin to understand WHY they don’t want to sit on their thrones and in the end you honestly don’t blame any of them for abandoning their task.

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yakko@feddit.uk ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
“It’s just pattern recognition!” Bestie, you just described the only thing the neocortex does.

…I’m being real sarcastic for a guy who couldn’t beat DS1 without playing a sorcerer.

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- Kolanaki@pawb.social ⁨5⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Try big hammer. Lizard brain and monkey brain meet.
  
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