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Comment on Hollow Knight: Silksong Sparks Debate About Difficulty and Boss Runbacks

something that i think gets lost in the sauce in thrse discussions is whether fun is derived from playing or winning. people are comparing Silksong- and to get ahead of it right now i haven't played and am not criticizing either of the Hollow Knights- to old arcade and early console games and their legendary difficulty, but a lot of those games were meant to be complete and fun experiences even if you game over very early on. they also didn't have levels full of bespoke Stuff in them, it was the same few tiles and entities in different configurations., so being stuck on level 1 didn't mean you were missing out on a narrative and worldbuilding. with how the lines have blurred between games and narrative art forms in the last few decades, there are different incentives at play and someone stuck on world 1 of SMB isn't missing out nearly as much as someone stuck on whatever the first stage of Silksong is. it's all ultimately apples and oranges

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BlameTheAntifa@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
For me, much of the fun is making progress. i never finished the first game because I kept getting lost and stuck and unable to progress for extended periods. In a From Software game I can spend weeks on a single boss and masochistically enjoy every moment because I know what I have to do. The problem I had with Hollow Knight was I kept finding myself completely at a loss about where to go or what to do. I would spend days retreading the same empty caverns looking for a clue and not finding any. When I knew what I had to do, I enjoyed it immensely, but progression was often too obscure and my interest slowly evaporated.

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- WolfLink@sh.itjust.works ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  This is the “metroidvania” genre part of the game but, it’s not for everyone.
  
  That being said, both Hollow Knight and Silksong make the exploration a lot more streamlined than in older metroidvanias with the map features. When you don’t know where to go, check your map and look for paths that lead to areas that aren’t filled in yet. When you get a new power, see if you can remember any locations where that might be useful.
  
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Regrettable_incident@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
I recently started gaming again after a twenty year gap. Back in the day I used to go for high difficulty and complete everything. Now, I’m playing on easy difficulty setting. Partly cos I’m in my 50s, reactions are slower and my hands are a bit fucked up. Partly because I want to enjoy the story and the experience - if I get stuck on a fight and keep dying I get frustrated eventually and angry with myself for not being as good as I want to be. That feeling is not what I’m gaming for, so yeah, easy setting.

I haven’t played hollow knight because I’m told it’s frustrating and difficult, and, while the aesthetic really appeals to me I don’t wanna be frustrated. But I’m so happy for all the people who have been waiting for this and are enjoying it, sometimes we do get nice things!

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- ameancow@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  I’m older also and am enjoying Hollow Knight a lot, it’s hard but I wouldn’t say frustrating, the game lets you say “Hmn this is not working out, I’m coming back here later after I get more skills or abilities” and it’s relatively non-linear for a metroidvania type game.
  
  Part of why it was very popular is the difficulty straddled a good line between challenging and manageable enough to keep making progress. But every player has different experience levels, distractions or time-limits on how much we can dedicate to gaming so it should be standard to allow players to choose difficulty. However, in a game like Hollow Knight you might be able to adjust the difficulty of boss fights but that’s only part of the challenge, the rest of the challenge in inherent in the game’s layout and mechanics.
  
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4am@lemmy.zip ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
The problem with “old difficulty” was that in arcades especially, and even on consoles by way of the industry being smaller and the same people working on both, were designed around quarter-munching.

Stuff was hard to get people to pay up.

I would have preferred modern ideas like bosses are hard because you have to learn their patterns- and to be clear, this is also present - but also the feeling that I’m not strong enough to do anything more than chip damage is a bit annoying.

I think there’s validity in all the arguments I’ve seen people making; but at the same time I’m glad the game’s not easy. I just don’t know if it always needs to be punishing through frustration.

(The thing that pisses me off the most are those

Tap for spoiler
Red flower buds you need to pogo off of. Do they REALLY need to be over spikes every time? Does my downward thrust really need to be at an angle to bounce off them?? I started out being ok with that movement and I’ve never regressed so fast or so hard at anything in a game before. I swear I’ve lost more lives and to that than bosses; and by the game’s very nature that means a run back every time! Ugh!

So that’s why I say there’s a difference between “tricky” hard and “annoying” hard.

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- Goodeye8@piefed.social ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  I know what you mean with the downward thrust. It just fucks with my platforming.
  
  a bit of a spoiler not but not really as I only mention the name of the ability and what it does.
  There's a Wanderer Crest that makes your downward attack like it is in Hollow Knight. That was a game changer for me.
  
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- ozymandias117@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  ::: spoiler If you’re having trouble with red flower buds, maybe explore a different area.
  
  I found them much easier after I unlocked some other things :::
  
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  - 4am@lemmy.zip ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Thanks for the reassurance. I was starting to do just that, but I’ve only had about 6 hours in game so far and of that I feel like I’m moving pretty slow. So perhaps there is hope yet!
    
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- Buddahriffic@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Some arcades were actually a bit more manipulative than that in that they’d get harder depending on how long it was since you last put a quarter in.
  
  Mortal Kombat was one. I noticed this pattern on the snes version of MK3 (can’t remember if it was ultimate or not that I had): I’d easily win one fight, then get demolished by the next fighter. Then continue and that same fighter would be easy, only for the next one after that to be much more difficult. I didn’t have to put quarters into my snes but they just used the same tuning from the arcade machines.
  
  Eventually when I played that game, I was spending much more time on the space invaders minigame lol.
  
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- kadaverin0@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  
  I would have preferred modern ideas like bosses are hard because you have to learn their patterns- and to be clear, this is also present - but also the feeling that I’m not strong enough to do anything more than chip damage is a bit annoying.
  
  This is why I stopped playing Elden Ring. I have no problem learning patterns for boss fights but the perpetual feeling that I’m fighting Godzilla with a badminton racket is obnoxious. Especially after I spent the last 20 hours of play grinding out equipment upgrades and levels. It doesn’t feel fun or rewarding.
  
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  - MissingInteger@lemmy.zip ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Might I ask for which boss this applied to you? I only had this for optional bosses for which I was underleveled and never for required bosses.
    
    I enjoyed getting the shit beaten out of me when fighting the Black Gargoyle in Caelid. I never struggled like that with the required bosses, except a bit for the final boss, which I enjoyed.
    
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    kadaverin0@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Maliketh. First phase I can handle but his second phase can eat my whole ass. I stopped playing after 40 or so attempts. I like a challenge. I’ve beaten every Soulsborne game aside Demon and Sekiro. But there is a point where my frustration overrides the fun I’m having.
    
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    Cybersteel@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    I can’t recall a boss that can’t be dealt with just being overleveled? Maybe Malenia? But she’s human sized not a giant boss. Yeah the final boss kinda sux though but hey it’s the end of the game already might as well power through it.
    
    Hmm maybe the DLC, some of those are damn nasty fuckers.
    
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