Comment on Hexbear federation megathread
14th_cylon@lemm.ee 1 year ago
Many users (including hexbear users) correctly (and politely) pointed out to me in DMs that the symbol has a much broader use than just as the symbol of the USSR, and people elsewhere in the world may not associate it with the USSR at all
imagine i desecrate jewish graveyard, put swastikas all over the place and my defense is “man, swastikas were used all around the word through history, they don’t just belong to nazi germany, you know?” is your reaction going to be “well, you raise some interesting points”?
i doubt that.
“argument” like that is just an asshole trying to obfuscate the facts and delay the consequences of their own action, it is classic propaganda method.
Hexbear admin response After the above events had played out, I reached out to hexbear admins for clarification on their moderation policies and how they handle such cases. I was actually very happy with their response:
do you feel that response is actually going to change something and it is sincere, not just an effort to obfuscate the reality in the line with what i said above?
or is it like this?
the comrade below actually suggests that there is a time and place for such rhetoric, it is just not right here, right now. you have to think politically and wait for the right time, comrade!
i generally agree with your liberal approach to federation, unfortunately sometimes the reality forces you to take some pragmatic steps and i don’t think anyone would blame you if you took the easy solution, you are not obligated to dig through pile of shit.
i am also not a fan of pseudoliberalism in the style of “just let everyone make their own decision”. it is like saying we don’t need police, lets just let everyone to deal with the world themselves. it is obvious nonsense, most people just want to go about their business and they appriciate the fact there is relatively safe environment behind their apartment door.
Symbol of the Nazi party, famous for rounding up and systematically exterminating millions of jews, black people, leftists, anarchists, etc and attempting to conquer all of europe is exactly the same as the main symbol of an ideology which advocates for workers collectively owning the means of production?
I understand what you mean but the hammer and sickle is the symbol of communism, not belonging to one country. the hammer and sickle did not originate with what happened in estonia.
ideology which advocates for workers collectively owning the means of production?
Not to defend nazis, but are you really going to ignore the deaths under communism or how communist dictators persecuted people?
every system has had deaths under it. for example, i could say: not to defend nazis, but are you really going to ignore the deaths under capitalism or the bodo league massacre, the vietnam war crimes, agent orange, the laos bombings, the civilian killings in iraq, the drone strikes that killed civilians all across the middle east, slavery, all of the deaths causes by poverty, etc.
Obviously it has happened under communism as well but nowhere near to the scale under capitalism (for the most part, see Pol Pot, the Red Terror, Holodomor)
Pol Pot
The fascist whose faction was put in power by the US, that was overthrown by Vietnamese communists? Whose gov’t-in-exile the US supported against the communist People’s Republic of Cambodia until 1993?
That’s some “hitler was a socialist”-level bs
Holodomor
Just so you know comrade, there is no academic consensus even among western scholars that the '32 famine was anything more than a disaster, and certainly not a genocide. Mark Tauger has a great debunking of Anne Applebaum on the subject. So we do not, in fact, have to apologize for that.
Well, we either ignore deaths or we don’t. The United States of America ran the largest slave trade in history and nearly wiped out the native population of an entire continent, nuked two cities, overthrew countless democracies, and bankrolled/trained fascist and/or religious fundamentalist militias all over the world. This is all historical fact.
But it also represents one of the strongest cultures in history, as well historical advancements in science, technology, civics, etc. Just like the USSR. Whereas the Nazis only represent industrialized genocide, eugenics and fascist oppression, the Soviet Union and the USA represent both the good and bad of humanity in extreme amounts. Their evils can be denounced just as much as their successes can be celebrated, and more usefully both can and should be studied as opposed to completely discarded on weak ideological principles. That’s why they’re both admissible in civil discussion.
Small caveat: the United States dropped two nuclear weapons to end a fascist dictatorship in Japan that ran a war of oppression against over a billion people. Including countless warcrimes and crimes against humanity that killed millions of people in occupied countries.
I understand what you mean but the hammer and sickle is the symbol of communism, not belonging to one country. the hammer and sickle did not originate with what happened in estonia.
and swastika did not originate in the nazi germany and yet here we are.
thank you for giving all of us illustration of that very kind of obfuscation of facts i was talking about. now sod off and stay on hexbear.
😠
Yet the hammer and sickle is just as atta hed to the USSR as the swastika is to nazis
wait u a trot
when the heck did we let trots on hexbear
Left unity means left unity
Left unity was always achieved after properly excluding elements both parties disagreed on. We are able to stay united on hexbear because we do not discuss some events in history where we weren’t so… united
Is hexbear not about left solidarity? I am a Trotskyist, yes. I believe in the permanent revolution, comrade Catradora
Sorry, hexbear didn’t have many trotskyists when I was more active a few months ago
although I disagree with you strongly, solidarity forever comrade blake
For the record, I think the time and place for such rhetoric would be exclusively within the Hexbear instance, against agitators who are deliberately being hostile. Outside of Hexbear, and with users who are at least trying to engage in good faith, I agree that Hexbear users are often too impulsive with escalating directly to dunks and spamming PPB. In this case, I thought the user was way out of line and I politely told them so. Apparently they agreed and deleted their own comment.
I know Hexbear users can be a bit much, but I think we’re capable of having level-headed conversations with other instances about toning it down whenever we step outside our own hive.
For the record, I think the time and place for such rhetoric would be exclusively within the Hexbear instance,
for the record, the time and place for such discussion is never and nowhere. the fact you think that only problem is that it leaked “to the general public” just shows how insane you are.
I understand that users outside of Hexbear might be offended by it, and that’s entirely understandable and I absolutely agree we should behave ourselves outside of our own instance. But respectfully it isn’t your place to tell us how to conduct ourselves within our own instance.
Can @Awoo@hexbear.net or another Hexbear user confirm that the comment referenced above is common and acceptable within Hexbear’s CoC?
I think we’re capable of having level-headed conversations with other instances about toning it down whenever we step outside our own hive.
Clearly some of you are having a very difficult time with that simple expectation.
I hope you understand that I singled you out as you seem to be in conversation with Sun. And this is unfortunate to read.
Sunaurus is standing up for staying federated with Hexbear. That’s about as good faith as it gets. To then be attacked in such a vile and repugnant way is totally inexcusable.
I find your explanation and your excuses about technical limitations to be pretty lame. I seem to be able to go about my online life without telling people that their grandparents deserve(d) their deaths. I don’t need CSS to help me act like a civilized individual.
I know Hexbear users can be a bit much, but I think we’re capable of having level-headed conversations with other instances about toning it down whenever we step outside our own hive.
If only, most of the hexbear comments in this thread prove that is not possible.
😤
I don’t have to imagine it. My family was the victim of capitalist genocide, my family did have graves defiled. They were Irish during the famine and had the temerity to continue to be Catholic when they immigrated to America where they still had to be second-class citizens for another hundred years. By your own logic, why should I be civil toward liberal capitalists who defend the same system that tried to explicitly eradicate my family and their culture?
The problem with the ‘live and let be’ tolerant philosophy on online forums and the argument against moderation is the paradox of tolerance:
“The paradox of tolerance states that if a society is tolerant without limit, its ability to be tolerant is eventually ceased or destroyed by the intolerant. Karl Popper described it as the seemingly self-contradictory idea that in order to maintain a tolerant society, the society must retain the right to be intolerant of intolerance.”
(From Wikipedia)
the comrade below actually suggests that there is a time and place for such rhetoric, it is just not right here, right now. you have to think politically and wait for our moment, comrade!
its called sitting in our own little instance making funny jokes to outrage people, you seem to have fallen into that trap.
GarbageShoot@hexbear.net 1 year ago
This is a bizarre and perhaps manipulative comparison. What is the Jewish graveyard in this context? Because the vandalizing a Jewish graveyard part does a lot to provide context to the action in your hypothetical where you provide no such context for the hammer and sickle’s use.
Furthermore, it’s a bizarre comparison because most of us are white or Hispanic rather than Indian (being a mostly American website), which means that we generally have no connection to the swastika in its original use but some connection to the Nazi use, whereas the uses of the hammer and sickle by other parties in Europe, Latin America, tbe US, and elsewhere are ones that we could plausibly have actual connections to.
Mind you, I disagree with the equating of the hammer and sickle to the swastika to start with, I think it’s a disgusting “both sides”-ing that Nazi sympathizers love to promote. I just also dislike faulty arguments.
14th_cylon@lemm.ee 1 year ago
here is your context. your comrades advocating for class war and killing people for crime of having more money than you
i have no idea how you had arrived to this conclusion or why you think it is relevant
i live in a country that was under both nazi and russian occupation. people were killed in the name of swastika. and later people were killed in the name hammer and sickle. they were shot on the borders for the crime of attempting to leave the communist paradise and there kids wouldn’t be allowed to school for not having correct political profile.
so trust me, we have quite strong “actual connection” here. just because you are uneducated american, doesn’t mean that everyone else is.
you are right, it is nor really fair to nazis, who killed measly 17 million people, compared to impressive 100 million killed by communists.
en.wikipedia.org/…/The_Black_Book_of_Communism statista.com/…/number-of-victims-nazi-regime/
you are on my blocklist now, so don’t bother with another pile of your communist bullshit, i am not interested.
Outdoor_Catgirl@hexbear.net 1 year ago
Using the same methods of counting excess deaths, the British empire killed 1.8 billion. mronline.org/…/britain-robbed-india-of-45-trillio…
14th_cylon@lemm.ee 1 year ago
www.statista.com/…/population-india-historical/ www.google.com/search?q=victims+of+british+occupa…
JackBruh@lemm.ee 1 year ago
Communism killed 100 million in Europe alone and 300-400 million in China. Count other parts of the world and the number easily reaches a billion.
Your source comes from some random Indian guy who knows nothing about history. Provide me a source from actually truthful western media or your information is false.
HornyOnMain@hexbear.net 1 year ago
big-honk and how did they get that money? honk-enraged How did they get the fucking money mf? honk
GoodEye8@lemm.ee 1 year ago
Your post is a pretty good example of what I don’t like about Hexbear (and also Lemmygrad because they do the same shit). Clearly the other person has a misconception. It’s a chance to educate people on what the class conflict between proletariat and bourgeoisie actually is (spoiler, it’s not about money). And what do you do instead? Antagonizing trolling to completely shut the door on having any constructive discussion, while also misrepresenting class conflict thus perpetuating the same original misconception. I literally cannot think of a worse response than the one you gave. You’ve done an absolute disservice to the very ideology you follow.
uralsolo@hexbear.net 1 year ago
lmao you’re a black book guy? To think I felt bad and deleted my comment.
Landlords, kulaks, Nazis collaborators etc are not ethnic groups, they are groups of people who have explicitly chosen to do something that is incredibly harmful to others, often thousands or millions of others. Saying that they deserve to die is no different than saying that someone who commits a murder does, it’s just that our society has conditioned you into thinking that the terrible things wrought by capitalists are “normal”.
14th_cylon@lemm.ee 1 year ago
you are a communist, are you sure you are the one to judge someone? 🤣
Mindfury@hexbear.net 1 year ago
reported for absolutely disgusting Holocaust minimisation, jesus christ
14th_cylon@lemm.ee 1 year ago
shut up and go back to north korea, comrade
GreenTeaRedFlag@hexbear.net 1 year ago
Oh, gotcha. Your family deserved it.