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Comment on Why is UI design backsliding?

I’m so tired of neck beards assuming that any spacing in a design is a waste, as if a good design packs every milimeter with stuff. Proper application of negative space is common in art and throughout design.

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theherk@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago
Almost like Microsoft did a tremendous amount of user research aimed at improving the accessibility of the most commonly used features. I don’t use their products much, but the design has definitely improved over the years and extra padding is a big part of it.

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- Gutless2615@ttrpg.network ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago
  The design has absolutely not “definitely” improved.
  
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  - theherk@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago
    I hoped it was clear that I was making a purely subjective statement there. So that’s just like… my opinion man.
    
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  - Llewellyn@lemm.ee ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago
    I disagree.
    
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- AA5B@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago
  I find it’s weird to see this article, as if they just now discovered the effing ribbon ….
  
  I had given up on more compact UIs and bought bigger screens: I can no longer work without at least 2. However lately I’ve been using a lot of large Excel spreadsheets, and am cursing the ribbon again. I need to use the “filter” control a lot, but it only appears on the “Home” ribbon when the Window is a certain size 😡. I don’t even know where it is the rest of the time, but it seems like whenever I want to filter a lot of data I need to start by adjusting window size until the filter controls appear.
  
  Yay for “usability”, instead of a compact UI where things can be found in predictable menu locations regardless of window size
  
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  - Donut@leminal.space ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago
    You know you can customize the ribbon entirely, right? Make it your own and put your most used features in there
    
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    AA5B@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago
    Then how will I find new features? How will I use other computers? I just want the functionality organized in some predictable way and leave me some place to work in. I want my work to be the focus, not some designer on peyote’s idea of a good time. And I want to be able to do it on any computer I happen to use
    
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- leftzero@lemmynsfw.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago
  The usability has been plummetting with every single redesign for quite a while, though.
  
  Used to be everything could be found and done in two or three clicks… now it’s five minutes clicking and scrolling through the useless single windowed chaos of the configuration app looking for where the last update randomly moved it to (finding one or two options that are almost what you’re looking for, but can’t do what used to take just a couple clicks), five minutes looking it up on what’s left of the internet while avoiding ads, spam, and hallucinating LLMs, only to find out this setting you and everyone you know had been using almost daily was removed by the last update “to improve usability”, and five minutes writing eldritch incantations into the registry, group policies, or powershell to finally configure the fucking setting…
  
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TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago
You are among the first people I’ve seen online who hasn’t circlejerked about any level padding/spacing being too much padding.

People on Reddit/Lemmy always talk about how unusably shit any modern design is, and how UX/UI from 20+ years ago was so much better.

Yet do they use ancient copies of the software that broadly still performs the tasks people need of them? No.

Do they theme their system to look like the oh-so-superior Win98? No.

Don’t get me wrong, sometimes I see a design change I dislike. But as a general rule, UI has definitely got better over the years.

I look at 20 year old Linux DE screenshots, and they look bad. Cluttered, inconsistent, ugly. I look at them now and they look beautiful. Nostalgia goggles are a powerful thing.

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- nyan@lemmy.cafe ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago
  
  Yet do they use ancient copies of the software that broadly still performs the tasks people need of them? No.
  
  Yes, actually—I have a VM reserved mostly for 16-bit software.
  
  Do they theme their system to look like the oh-so-superior Win98? No.
  
  Yes, actually—the Windows machine I’m forced to use for work restores as much of that aesthetic as practical, sometimes with the help of third-party software. My main home machine features a Linux DE whose appearance is largely the same as it was circa 2005 and whose development team is dedicated to keeping that look and feel.
  
  Some of us do put our money where our mouths are, although I admit that isn’t universal.
  
  It’s true that some level of padding is necessary in a UI, but the amount present in contemporary design is way too large for a system using a traditional mouse or laptop touchpad, which are capable of small, precise movements. Touchscreen-friendly design is best saved for touchscreens, but people don’t want to do the work involved to create multiple styles of UI for different hardware. I’ve never encountered anything touted as “one size fits all”, whether it be a UI or a piece of clothing, that actually does fit everyone. At best, it’s “one size fits most”, and I’m usually outside the range of “most” the designers had in mind. At worst, it’s “lowest common denominator”, and that seems to be the best description for contemporary UI design.
  
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  - TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago
    
    Yes, actually—I have a VM reserved mostly for 16-bit software
    
    Do you think that’s normal? I made very clear in my comment I was referring to the vast majority of people, not a tiny majority of 80s/early 90s software enthusiasts.
    
    Yes, actually
    
    As above, do you think that’s normal? I never said *literally nobody, anywhere, on planet Earth does this.
    
    Some of us do put our money where our mouths are, although I admit that isn’t universal.
    
    Exactly. And that’s fine.
    
    But the vast majority of people prefer UI now over what we had in the 90s.
    
    but the amount present in contemporary design is way too large
    
    In your opinion, sure. But that’s not the prevailing opinion.
    
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    nyan@lemmy.cafe ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago
    
    If people liked it, that’s what we’d have. Surely this is a simple concept?
    
    It’s bullshit. Most people choose from among the handful of things the corporations offer them. You have to be exceptionally blockheaded to stay with an OS that no longer receives security patches, even if you prefer its interface paradigm, and if you’re not the one controlling the machine you may not even have the option. The type of retrofitting I’ve done on my work machine is just that—work—and I understand why people may not want to do it, or may not be able to do it if they’d have to fight a draconian IT department for permission.
    
    Furthermore, most people aren’t designers or even terribly compute-literate. They don’t necessarily understand which design elements are causing them to be so inefficient when they move to a different OS version, or how to revert them in cases where that’s possible. They’re stuck with Microsoft-Apple-Google’s poor design decisions, until the same corp hands them another set of poor design decisions. The corporations don’t want to decouple the UI from the OS the way Linux and other Unixoids do and let people choose, because the shiny new UIs are an advertising opportunity and impress certain types of reviewers.
    
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  - interurbain1er@sh.itjust.works ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago
    
    which are capable of small, precise movements.
    
    Ah someone who never had to deal with handicap or accessibility issues who think since he can do it no one else needs it.
    
    Do you complain about ramps because staircase are just fine since legs can easily climb them too?
    
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    Avatar_of_Self@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago
    You might as well criticize someone that uses a mirror in spite of blind people existing.
    
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    nyan@lemmy.cafe ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago
    Oh, for the love of . . . If you need, or even just want, accessibility options, including larger pointer targets, they should be available to you, but as options, since not everyone needs the same ones, and things that help one person’s issues can actually make another’s worse.
    
    The killer combination is to have both ramps for those who need them and stairs for those who can use them, coequal and well-maintained. Sometimes space may dictate that you can only fit one in, in which case you should choose the ramp, but a dozen different Windows skins would take up less space on the install media than one flop “feature” like Paint 3D, and I assume it’s the same for a Mac. Part of the reason for the currest state of affairs is that corporations are horrified at the thought of giving people actual choice and letting them find what works best for their level of ability as well as their preferences. They might make $0.01 less per unit that way, you see.
    
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  - rottingleaf@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago
    
    My main home machine features a Linux DE whose appearance is largely the same as it was circa 2005 and whose development team is dedicated to keeping that look and feel.
    
    That be TDE or Mate?.. I can’t get rid of anxiety without using FVWM with small simple panel and very minimal look. But I am nostalgic.
    
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    nyan@lemmy.cafe ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago
    TDE. Mate would work too, I suppose, but I imprinted on KDE3 early.
    
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- cmhe@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago
  People spend lots of money to buy big screens, only for apps/websites to use a fraction of it.
  
  I cannot control how every application or website I have to use looks, but where I can, I try to find solutions.
  
  When I am occasionally on reddit, I use old.reddit. I use addons for youtube, to remove unecessary stuff, or open videos directly in mpv.
  
  Mastodon and Lemmy have a much better design than Twitter or new Reddit.
  
  On the one windows machine I still have, I use the classic shell, to replace the start menu with something more usable.
  
  I use Libreoffice, and many other Software with sane functional UI.
  
  I don’t want to use old software, because the older software gets, the more hostile the environment becomes for it.
  
  A lot of UI decisions on the Internet seem driven by the need to create empty spaces to put advertising into, and with adblocker it looks just bad.
  
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  - TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago
    The bulk of these aren’t issues with modern design, IMO, it’s about enshittification of the services we use.
    
    Having huge spaces for ads, for example, isn’t a “this is how UX should be” thing, it’s a “lets shove ads everywhere to make money” thing. If you put the same amount of ads in older software/on sites that look like they’re from 2002, it would also look terrible.
    
    The Windows start menu isn’t bad because it has some padding and easier click targets, it’s bad because the search doesn’t work, it’s full of ads, and pushes Bing searches on you.
    
    Etc.
    
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    cmhe@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago
    Yes they are, UX designers are not asked to make more efficient or usable designs, they are asked to make designs that “look good” in marketing, support ad integration, hook people into others services provided by that same company, make it more difficult to incorporate with workflows that include third-party applications, etc.
    
    This is deliberate UX design, which is part of the enshittification process.
    
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- rottingleaf@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago
  
  Yet do they use ancient copies of the software that broadly still performs the tasks people need of them? No.
  
  This just means that functionality and interoperability criteria are more important than usability. They are - you can’t just exchange docs with a person using a modern office suite, while you are using WordPerfect 8 for Linux.
  
  This is the opposite of confirming your argument about UI\UX, because this means that UI\UX are order of magnitude less important in making the decision.
  
  And it’s obvious, I swear, some people haven’t been taught that arguments are not intended to support their group or hierarchy, you can’t do that with cheating in arguments anyway. They are intended to find out truth, make both participants richer than before.
  
  Do they theme their system to look like the oh-so-superior Win98? No.
  
  That’s simply because they “theme their system” to look as they wish and they don’t have to stop with Win98 or Win2K.
  
  But in a “one size to fit all” situation those are still obviously superior.
  
  Ergonomics is not a matter of opinions, there’s plenty of research since the fscking world war two. Different controls should have different colors, shapes and textures. It’s a scientifically proven statement. Proven with human error stats and time to do a task stats.
  
  Padding controls and indicators with space can be a good thing, but no modern designer is doing it right as far as I’m concerned. Because it’s not about making panels half the screen, it’s about different groups of controls being clearly separated by that space and padded for focus, and space being used proportionally to importance.
  
  They’ve all heard something of it, but haven’t learned the actual thing.
  
  Older UIs were usually (often, but not always) made with respect to ergonomics.
  
  thank god modern UIs aren’t inconsistent, cramped and cluttered like this
  
  Our ideas of all three things seem to be diametrically opposite. For me older UIs seem ordered, compact and correctly accented. In general, it’s not always true - say, I like the appearance of old KDE (2-3), but not sure if I’d use it daily, for example (neither I would modern KDE).
  
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  - TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago
    
    This just means that functionality and interoperability criteria are more important than usability.
    
    Sometimes yes. Usually no, for most people. If you make a word document in an older version of office, it’ll still work fine. If you use LibreOffice with the oldest-looking UI, it’ll still work. 99% of people don’t use the extremely niche features that have been added in recent years.
    
    But people by and large don’t do that. They typically use the newest version.
    
    This is the opposite of confirming your argument about UI\UX, because this means that UI\UX are order of magnitude less important in making the decision.
    
    No it isn’t.
    
    How is using software with modern interfaces actually a confirmation that people actually prefer older UX?
    
    That’s simply because they “theme their system” to look as they wish and they don’t have to stop with Win98 or Win2K.
    
    Exactly. And almost nobody themes their system to look like the supposedly superior in UI/UX Win95/98/2000. Indicating that maybe people don’t actually want a UI from that era, despite Reddit and Lemmy insisting that everybody does.
    
    Ergonomics is not a matter of opinions, there’s plenty of research
    
    Exactly. And that research has lead to where we are now.
    
    Padding controls and indicators with space can be a good thing,
    
    Is a good thing.
    
    They’ve all heard something of it, but haven’t learned the actual thing.
    
    No, they’ve generally improved it, and listened to actual UX usability studies.
    
    Older UIs were usually (often, but not always) made with respect to ergonomics.
    
    They almost never were. Seriously. Go back and try some 90s software. Most of it was a cluttered mess, ugly, really weirdly laid out, and had zero considering for anybody with disabilities.
    
    Our ideas of all three things seem to be diametrically opposite. For me older UIs seem ordered, compact and correctly accented
    
    And that’s fine. You can think differently. But most would disagree with you, outside the Redditor/Lemmy bubble.
    
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    rottingleaf@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago
    You are immune to logic sadly, but I’ll answer two things, which can be extrapolated to all you’ve said.
    
    Sometimes yes. Usually no, for most people. If you make a word document in an older version of office, it’ll still work fine. If you use LibreOffice with the oldest-looking UI, it’ll still work. 99% of people don’t use the extremely niche features that have been added in recent years.
    
    No, it all won’t work fine at your work where you send documents and spreadsheets and stuff with complex functionality to your colleagues and clients. And they send their documents to you. And versions edited in your old version or LO break.
    
    That aside, WordPerfect 8 doesn’t support MSW document formats, IIRC, and MSW doesn’t support WP8 document formats.
    
    Exactly. And that research has lead to where we are now.
    
    This is factually incorrect and I have already said it’s incorrect. That research has mostly been exhausted, and the conclusions one can make from it are more or less the same as in 40s, 60s and 80s. And 90s’ interfaces were more usable because by habit people tried to follow industrial ergonomics, even though computer displays allow one to cheaply shoot their user in the foot, in the way some device’s panel with switches, buttons and knobs doesn’t.
    
    They almost never were. Seriously. Go back and try some 90s software. Most of it was a cluttered mess, ugly, really weirdly laid out, and had zero considering for anybody with disabilities.
    
    Some of it. But IBM and Apple had human interface guidelines based on actual research about ergonomics, which hasn’t become obsolete despite what you say, because humans did not change as a race in 30 years. UI\UX following those is still good.
    
    Judging by the first quote, you simply haven’t done work requiring heavy usage of productivity software yet.
    
    Also you are arguing like a schoolboy. Exactly in the way schoolboys consider to not look like it. I could give advice, but that usually only results in resistance.
    
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- Swuden@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago
  These people have no idea what constitutes a good user interface. Just because they’ve taught themselves how to use the one from 1998, does not mean that grandma of 78 would find it as intuitive. Applications like this have to accommodate so many different types of people and somehow the neckbeards seem to forget that. Can’t imagine why.
  
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- AA5B@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago
  Laptop screens are no useless; I need my 27” monitor to fit the useable workspace that a laptop screen once had
  
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  - AnUnusualRelic@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago
    2k is the new 800×600… :-/
    
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  - TheGrandNagus@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago
    How are laptop screens useless? I’m using a laptop right now. Doesn’t seem useless to me.
    
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    I have more than enough room.
    
    Laptops wouldn’t be the main form factor for doing PC work if they were useless.
    
    I need my 27” monitor to fit the useable workspace that a laptop screen once had
    
    Unless you’ve got scaling set super high for some reason, that’s very doubtful.
    
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    AA5B@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago
    No wait, let me go with your example ….
    
    You believe a laptop window is useful because you can run a browser with 11 headlines visible
    
    My first work “computer” was a vt100 terminal: black and white, 80 characters wide (on the newer models), by 24 rows. I could and did have a reader that could display as many as 20 headlines on a single screen, and I could scroll and drill down much faster. Sure the UI was shit, but it had the functionality to do the task.
    
    Don’t get me wrong, I fully appreciate the usability and power of a modern graphical UI and would never go back. However the point is designers focus too much on eye candy and “doing it because they can” over actual functionality. Can you understand my frustration that a modern 1900x1200 screen with millions of colors is really no more functional than a 40 year old black and white character based terminal. I get that designers want to show off their UI, but I want the UI to get out of my way and let me do more stuff. I want there to be more focus on compactness and efficiency. I want at least some attention paid to using resources wisely
    
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    AA5B@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago
    Wow, you can fit one whole browser window on it … with headlines.
    
    Even back in the CRT days, I could have a couple windows, such as email, text, and IDE
    
    my email program now has huge wasted ui space so might take up the whole laptop screen, leaving me thing. Email is not work, but something on the side for communication that shouldn’t interfere with work
    
    my text chat is no longer a tiny rectangle in the corner but has huge wasted ui space and wants to take up an entire laptop screen. Even that is sometimes not enough. Text is not work, text is somethign on the side that shouldn’t interfere with work
    
    my IDE has huge waste UI space and no longer fits any useable workspace on a laptop screen
    
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    twei@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago
    Is that a Framework Laptop?
    
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ian@feddit.uk ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago
For some, with only a small screen, wasted space means extra navigation to find hidden commands. A usability fail just so the app looks pretty. Also a symptom of “one UI fits all” just to save businesses money.

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- Aceticon@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago
  In my experience working with Designers for web and app design, they always had trouble with dynamic stuff at all levels, from program flow and elements which dynamically collapsed or expanded to using animation to illustrate things or call attention to something.
  
  Don’t get me wrong, as a programmer I was like a toddler next to them when it came to even just awareness of all the concerns related to merelly visual organisation, not counting all sorts of other concerns in a visual design some of which I’m sure I’m even not aware exist. It’s just that when it came to dynamic elements their expertise was comparativelly non-existent.
  
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  - ian@feddit.uk ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago
    In this case I wouldn’t associate the poor usability with the designers, I think its down to big business not caring. Plus it costs more to make a UI good, and flexible for different user situations. They’ll also hire the cheapest designers. It’s all about saving money and more profit. Their main aim. And in the case of monopolies, people can’t go elsewhere. The problems all come down from the top.
    
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Blaster_M@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨month⁩ ago
There’s a point where it’s literally TMI and it becomes hard to find what you need unless you spend a lot of time training on it

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