E-bike rules in Australia will soon change with possible ban on sale of bikes faster than 25km/h

Comments

• sem@piefed.blahaj.zone ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Where I live in USA, 25min/h is equivalent to 18mph, and almost fast enough to match typical car speeds on neighborhood roads. But I wouldn’t want to go much faster because unlike bikes, scooters are inherently unstable.

  I don’t ride a bike much any more bc of back pain, bit I do use a scooter with no pedal assist, and even at 500W it slows to about 10 mph going up 15° hills right outside my front door.

  I’m no engineer, but in the cold weather, the scooter is even less powerful.

  I like being able to avoid using a car for most trips, but I could not do that with a bike bc of the pain, and 250 W cannot get me up hills w/o pedal assist.

  In hindsight I should have testridden more scooters and foynd one with ergonomics that allowed riding it more like a kick scooter. My current one has the battery under the deck which is great for center of gravity, but makes it dangerous to kick-push.

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  • Zagorath@aussie.zone ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    I’m gonna assume you meant 15% hills? 15° isn’t very much!

    Anyway, the regulations around PMDs are different from ebikes. There aren’t power requirements, I believe, only speed ones. But it’s not an area I know much about because I’ve never really cared much about it.

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    • sem@piefed.blahaj.zone ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Thanks! I am not sure how hills are measured! I just know the one right around me is between 15 and 20, and causes the scooter to slow from 18.6 mph top speed down to 10 or so.

      Don’t use this info to calculate my weight lol.

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• shirro@aussie.zone ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  We need to roll back much of the the vehicularisation of cycling that empowers risk seekers, predominantly men, to ride invisibly amongst massive trucks. That means building out more separated infrastructure for old people, children, families and risk averse cyclists who don’t want to live out the rest of their lives with severe brain injuries sustained when the driver of a motor vehicle has a momentary lapse of attention.

  We can’t have high powered electric motor bikes amongst human powered bikes on separated infrastructure. If they want to kill themselves riding amongst cars, just class them as motor bikes and upgrade their brakes and helmets and let them do 300km/h on the roads. Their organ donations are much appreciated.

  25km/h is fine for mixing with other traffic not protected by steel boxes and airbags. It might even be too much for some older cyclists. You might need more power than 250W for a heavily laded cargo bike going up a hill but those things also have the potential do more damage if they hit someone. So its a tradeoff. First we decide to provide safe cycling infrastructure independent of the roads and cars so we aren’t fighting over who gets what.

  Then we decide what is compatible with that infrastructure. I think we need to be more accepting of risk on mixed bike/pedestrian paths and less accepting of risk on mixed bike/motor vehicle roads. The pedestrian lobby kills cyclists. But not sure exactly where the balance lies. Some states don’t even let cyclists on foot paths. Insane.

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• hanrahan@slrpnk.net ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  FFS…300km/hr from a car, no proeblms, 25 km/hr o a pushie, literally armageddon

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  • Taleya@aussie.zone ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    You can still go over 25. It just means the motor cuts out when you hit that speed. It’s still a frickin’ bike, you can still absolutely go over 25, just have to haul your arse yourself.

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  • pHr34kY@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    With a motorcycle licensed rider and ADR compliance, sure. But not kids on toys.

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  • Zagorath@aussie.zone ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    The real problem that’s not being explicitly talked about here is unregistered electric motorbikes being sold (often to children) as “ebikes”. Vehicles that don’t have pedals, or have only vestigial pedals, and are reaching speeds well over 25 km/h (often fast enough to keep up with cars in traffic) without any pedalling. Morrison’s Government changed the rules to allow importing of these electric motorbikes, and there have been multiple deaths in SEQ over the past few months as a result. The change to ban the import and sale of these vehicles is absolutely a good one. Even if you think, as I do, that EN15194 is a bit too strict.

    Also, as much as I am a vocal supporter of !fuckcars@lemmy.world and related movements, it’s not exactly the same comparison. Ebikes can be ridden on bike paths, shared paths, and (except in 2 states) footpaths with pedestrians. They require zero licensing, and are often ridden by children. Quite different from driving a car, on roads (where a speed limit does apply), after qualifying for a driver’s licence.

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• ada@piefed.blahaj.zone ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  250 watts just isn’t enough. It can help you carry a load or it can help you up a hill, but not both. I wouldn’t even bother with an ebike at that wattage. 500 (like in NSW) is a much more sensible maximum.

  It’s especially true given that wattage isn’t the real issue. Top speed is the issue and that can be capped independent of wattage.

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  • Grail@aussie.zone ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    They’re banning it based on wattage? That’s ridiculous. That means a 50kg person can go three times as fast as a 150kg person.

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    • Zagorath@aussie.zone ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Well, no. For starters, you’re forgetting that gravity it’s probably the only force acting on a bike that’s linear with speed. And even it technically isn’t linear—just close enough to be a good approximation over human scales. But air resistance goes with the square of speed. i.e., to double your speed requires quadrupling the power.

      More importantly though, there’s also a speed cap. EN15194 has a hard cap of 25 km/h. It can provide up to 250 W of assistance if you’re doing 24.9 km/h, but the motor must cut out entirely and be no help at 25.1 km/h. It also must be pedal assist, meaning it can only provide power while you are also providing power through your legs. The exception is up to 6 km/h it is allowed to assist with a button or throttle, sometimes called “walk mode”.

      The NSW law is a 500 W cap at present, but the law specifically calls out that it must “progressively reduce as the bicycle’s speed increases beyond 6km/h”, in addition to cutting off at 25 km/h, and the pedal-assist requirement.

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  • DavidDoesLemmy@aussie.zone ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    It’s not max output of 250w. It’s a motor rated for 250w, which often means peaks of 400w or more.

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  • Taleya@aussie.zone ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Bullshit. I’ve got a 250w pedelec and I’ve pulled large loads - 20/30kg - uphill in a headwind. I literally got my bike converted to a pedelec due to knee injuries and I’m managing that shit regularly.

    is it effortless? No. But that’s not the point of a friggin’ ebike. It’s not a car or a moped. It’s a pushy with assistance.

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    • ada@piefed.blahaj.zone ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      I’m old enough to be past my physical prime, and I don’t own a car. I use my ebike for everything. 250W is fine when your goal is exercise, or commuting, or the odd load here and there, but it just doesn’t cut it for every day use.

      Before I owned my ebike, I had a regular road bike that I did 15,000km on. But the only time it got used is when I was commuting or “going for a ride”. It was completely useless as a tool in my daily life. My ebike though sees regular use for things that most people would use a car for, and things that a road bike just couldn’t do.

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  • Greddan@feddit.org ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Sweden here. Never had a problem with 250W with cargo on my RadRunner. Not even in heavy snow. You know you’re supposed to pedal them too right?

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    • ada@piefed.blahaj.zone ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      You can drop the sarcasm. My roadbike has 15,000km on it. My ebike doesn’t even have a throttle. The only way to move it is to peddle.

      But I live in a sub tropical region. It doesn’t snow here, and temperatures have been hitting 35C this week, before we have even hit summer!

      When I used to commute to work on my roadbike, it was a workout. I’d get there covered in sweat, and feeling good.

      But I don’t use my ebike for workouts. I use it for daily life because I don’t own a car. And if every time I need to carry a load, it turns in to a workout and requires a change of clothes, then it’s no longer suitable for day to day life, and instead, becomes a workout tool. But I’ve already got one of those, and it’s not why I bought an ebike.

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  • Zagorath@aussie.zone ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Yeah I think NSW’s approach is pretty good. As you say, 250 W is a bit limited with heavy loads up hills. To put this into perspective, on my analogue bike, up one of the steepest hills I’ve ever climbed in Brisbane, I do about 400–500 W for about 20 seconds. Ebikes are all required to be pedal-assist, so let’s assume a baseline of 100 W from the cyclist’s legs (about what a casual cyclist who just wants to cruise along would do), plus the 250 W maximum output. That’s 20 seconds where they’re having to pedal extra hard, even if their total load (including bike, rider, and water) is comfortably under 90 kg. Make that a serious cargo bike (++kg) loaded with shopping, sports equipment, or kids (+++kg) and you’re likely going to end up putting out more power with your legs than I do on my analogue bike even after you account for your motor assistance.

    NSW also has a rule requiring the motors to smoothly taper their power. So at the 12 km/h I climb this particular hill at, you might get 400 W of assistance, but if you’re getting up to 22 km/h it might be just 100 W[^1]. Basically, it naturally self-corrects for any risk that might be associated with higher power at higher speeds. EN15194, otoh, is 250 W flat. It allows peaking above that amount for a short time, but from what I can tell it’s not clear how long that time is, or how it works in practice on compliant bikes.

    A counterpoint to this take would be: the hill I’m describing is extremely steep, and chosen in part because it’s steep. I’d go a different, easier route, if I wasn’t on a training ride. And 90% of the time, most utility cyclists will have options that avoid climbs that steep. And also that perhaps it’s not unreasonable to expect ebike users to put out more effort on hills than they do on the flat. Personally I find both of these arguments convincing enough if used against even higher power limits, but not convincing enough for me to oppose 500 W. Especially since I’m also in favour of increasing the speed cap from 25 km/h to 30 or 32 km/h (20 mph), since that’s the speed I feel I can comfortably reach without too much effort on the flat, on an analogue bike.

    [^1]: I made no attempt to actually do the maths on this. And I’m not sure if it’s meant to be a linear drop-off or if some curve is applied anyway.

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    • ada@piefed.blahaj.zone ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      See, that sounds absolutely perfect. Like you, I’d prefer 30 to 25, but whatever, that’s not a hill I need to die on. 25 does the job just fine too.

      And I love the fact that the wattage reduces as your speed amps up, because that means you get the most power when you need it, when carrying loads, hitting hills etc.

      I’d be quite ok with Australia adopting NSWs standards, because at that point, my ebike is still a viable alternative to car.

      But at 250W it’s not.

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• Zagorath@aussie.zone ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  A mandatory import approval through the federal government providing evidence a bike met the definition of an e-bike was removed in 2021, and replaced with an optional advisory notice.

  So, the Morrison government is responsible for starting this whole thing by allowing people to import vehicles that are dangerous and illegal to actually ride.

  However, a communiqué released on Friday reveals federal, state and territory transport ministers have agreed to reinstate reference to the European standard, EN15194, into the Road Vehicle Standards (Classes of Vehicles that are not Road Vehicles) Determination by the end of the year.

  Thankfully, that loophole is being restricted. The vehicles already in the country are a problem, but at least no more will be entering.

  In all states except NSW, currently EN15194 is used for what’s road-legal, except NSW, where 500 W is allowed. But

  “NSW will rapidly move to harmonise with that standard and with other states’ approach,” he said.

  They’re going to be moving to a more standardised approach.

  Personally, I think NSW’s 500 W might not be unreasonable, considering their laws also require the amount of power put out to smoothly decrease as you get above 6 km/h, whereas EN15194 is 250 W, flat, until you hit 25 km/h. Having more power might be especially useful for people with cargo bikes who need to go up steep hills with their shopping, sport gear, or kids.

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