We need to roll back much of the the vehicularisation of cycling that empowers risk seekers, predominantly men, to ride invisibly amongst massive trucks. That means building out more separated infrastructure for old people, children, families and risk averse cyclists who don’t want to live out the rest of their lives with severe brain injuries sustained when the driver of a motor vehicle has a momentary lapse of attention.
We can’t have high powered electric motor bikes amongst human powered bikes on separated infrastructure. If they want to kill themselves riding amongst cars, just class them as motor bikes and upgrade their brakes and helmets and let them do 300km/h on the roads. Their organ donations are much appreciated.
25km/h is fine for mixing with other traffic not protected by steel boxes and airbags. It might even be too much for some older cyclists. You might need more power than 250W for a heavily laded cargo bike going up a hill but those things also have the potential do more damage if they hit someone. So its a tradeoff. First we decide to provide safe cycling infrastructure independent of the roads and cars so we aren’t fighting over who gets what.
Then we decide what is compatible with that infrastructure. I think we need to be more accepting of risk on mixed bike/pedestrian paths and less accepting of risk on mixed bike/motor vehicle roads. The pedestrian lobby kills cyclists. But not sure exactly where the balance lies. Some states don’t even let cyclists on foot paths. Insane.
ada@piefed.blahaj.zone 2 days ago
250 watts just isn’t enough. It can help you carry a load or it can help you up a hill, but not both. I wouldn’t even bother with an ebike at that wattage. 500 (like in NSW) is a much more sensible maximum.
It’s especially true given that wattage isn’t the real issue. Top speed is the issue and that can be capped independent of wattage.
Greddan@feddit.org 2 days ago
Sweden here. Never had a problem with 250W with cargo on my RadRunner. Not even in heavy snow. You know you’re supposed to pedal them too right?
ada@piefed.blahaj.zone 2 days ago
You can drop the sarcasm. My roadbike has 15,000km on it. My ebike doesn’t even have a throttle. The only way to move it is to peddle.
But I live in a sub tropical region. It doesn’t snow here, and temperatures have been hitting 35C this week, before we have even hit summer!
When I used to commute to work on my roadbike, it was a workout. I’d get there covered in sweat, and feeling good.
But I don’t use my ebike for workouts. I use it for daily life because I don’t own a car. And if every time I need to carry a load, it turns in to a workout and requires a change of clothes, then it’s no longer suitable for day to day life, and instead, becomes a workout tool. But I’ve already got one of those, and it’s not why I bought an ebike.
Taleya@aussie.zone 2 days ago
Bullshit. I’ve got a 250w pedelec and I’ve pulled large loads - 20/30kg - uphill in a headwind. I literally got my bike converted to a pedelec due to knee injuries and I’m managing that shit regularly.
is it effortless? No. But that’s not the point of a friggin’ ebike. It’s not a car or a moped. It’s a pushy with assistance.
ada@piefed.blahaj.zone 2 days ago
I’m old enough to be past my physical prime, and I don’t own a car. I use my ebike for everything. 250W is fine when your goal is exercise, or commuting, or the odd load here and there, but it just doesn’t cut it for every day use.
Before I owned my ebike, I had a regular road bike that I did 15,000km on. But the only time it got used is when I was commuting or “going for a ride”. It was completely useless as a tool in my daily life. My ebike though sees regular use for things that most people would use a car for, and things that a road bike just couldn’t do.
Grail@aussie.zone 1 day ago
They’re banning it based on wattage? That’s ridiculous. That means a 50kg person can go three times as fast as a 150kg person.
Zagorath@aussie.zone 11 hours ago
Well, no. For starters, you’re forgetting that gravity it’s probably the only force acting on a bike that’s linear with speed. And even it technically isn’t linear—just close enough to be a good approximation over human scales. But air resistance goes with the square of speed. i.e., to double your speed requires quadrupling the power.
More importantly though, there’s also a speed cap. EN15194 has a hard cap of 25 km/h. It can provide up to 250 W of assistance if you’re doing 24.9 km/h, but the motor must cut out entirely and be no help at 25.1 km/h. It also must be pedal assist, meaning it can only provide power while you are also providing power through your legs. The exception is up to 6 km/h it is allowed to assist with a button or throttle, sometimes called “walk mode”.
The NSW law is a 500 W cap at present, but the law specifically calls out that it must “progressively reduce as the bicycle’s speed increases beyond 6km/h”, in addition to cutting off at 25 km/h, and the pedal-assist requirement.
Zagorath@aussie.zone 2 days ago
Yeah I think NSW’s approach is pretty good. As you say, 250 W is a bit limited with heavy loads up hills. To put this into perspective, on my analogue bike, up one of the steepest hills I’ve ever climbed in Brisbane, I do about 400–500 W for about 20 seconds. Ebikes are all required to be pedal-assist, so let’s assume a baseline of 100 W from the cyclist’s legs (about what a casual cyclist who just wants to cruise along would do), plus the 250 W maximum output. That’s 20 seconds where they’re having to pedal extra hard, even if their total load (including bike, rider, and water) is comfortably under 90 kg. Make that a serious cargo bike (++kg) loaded with shopping, sports equipment, or kids (+++kg) and you’re likely going to end up putting out more power with your legs than I do on my analogue bike even after you account for your motor assistance.
NSW also has a rule requiring the motors to smoothly taper their power. So at the 12 km/h I climb this particular hill at, you might get 400 W of assistance, but if you’re getting up to 22 km/h it might be just 100 W[^1]. Basically, it naturally self-corrects for any risk that might be associated with higher power at higher speeds. EN15194, otoh, is 250 W flat. It allows peaking above that amount for a short time, but from what I can tell it’s not clear how long that time is, or how it works in practice on compliant bikes.
A counterpoint to this take would be: the hill I’m describing is extremely steep, and chosen in part because it’s steep. I’d go a different, easier route, if I wasn’t on a training ride. And 90% of the time, most utility cyclists will have options that avoid climbs that steep. And also that perhaps it’s not unreasonable to expect ebike users to put out more effort on hills than they do on the flat. Personally I find both of these arguments convincing enough if used against even higher power limits, but not convincing enough for me to oppose 500 W. Especially since I’m also in favour of increasing the speed cap from 25 km/h to 30 or 32 km/h (20 mph), since that’s the speed I feel I can comfortably reach without too much effort on the flat, on an analogue bike.
[^1]: I made no attempt to actually do the maths on this. And I’m not sure if it’s meant to be a linear drop-off or if some curve is applied anyway.
ada@piefed.blahaj.zone 2 days ago
See, that sounds absolutely perfect. Like you, I’d prefer 30 to 25, but whatever, that’s not a hill I need to die on. 25 does the job just fine too.
And I love the fact that the wattage reduces as your speed amps up, because that means you get the most power when you need it, when carrying loads, hitting hills etc.
I’d be quite ok with Australia adopting NSWs standards, because at that point, my ebike is still a viable alternative to car.
But at 250W it’s not.
DavidDoesLemmy@aussie.zone 1 day ago
It’s not max output of 250w. It’s a motor rated for 250w, which often means peaks of 400w or more.