In almost 100% of scenarios that I can think of, the underdog is always the "good guy"

Submitted ⁨⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago⁩ by ⁨11111one11111@lemmy.world⁩ to ⁨showerthoughts@lemmy.world⁩

What would it take for the Goliath to be the hero and David to be the pessimist? Not just in fictional narrative depictions but throught history too. The only scenario I can think of that kinda fits the mold was 9/11. Where America may not of been the hero or “good guy” but the underdog Taliban was unanimously viewed as the “bad guys.” I’m not super knowledgeable when it comes to global geopolitical relations so I’m all ears for any scenarios that prove otherwise and would love to hear them.

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JackLSauce@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
The challenge isn’t finding counter examples, it’s limiting the narrative of history to have a simple “good/bad divide” but here are some selections one may consider the underdog the greater of two evils:

The confederacy (US Civil War)

Caesar’s army crossing the Rubicon

Imperial Japan post Pearl Harbor

Pakistan’s complicated history with India

King Leonidas and his men (Persia was arguably more equitable)

Austria-Hungary (WW1)

Fascist Italy (WW2)

As for David and Goliath, keep in mind David was using a sling, a weapon that can hit with the same force as a modern revolver when used properly. It’s entirely possible that story is an allegory and/or propaganda of the value of properly equipping one’s armies; it probably shouldn’t be viewed as anymore impressive than a rampage killer fatally wounding somebody twice their size
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- 11111one11111@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  Fuck yeah the civil war is exactly thr type of scenario i knew i couldn’t think of. I fuckin love that you also gave me a list of historical events I’m not super familiar with to look up too. Thank you for this comment🍻
  
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Euphorazine@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
The reason stories exist of the underdog winning, is because the underdogs lose almost all the time.

Also, David basically brought a gun to a knife fight against Goliath. Seems like Goliath should have been considered the underdog :3

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- dragontamer@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  
  Also, David basically brought a gun to a knife fight against Goliath. Seems like Goliath should have been considered the underdog :3
  
  Its been suggested that the combat could have been a ritualistic slaughter. Much like the Gladiator Ring was ritualized slaughter, to appease the masses.
  
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psx_crab@lemmy.zip ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
Melon Husk used to be the underdog of carmaker you know.

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- sxan@midwest.social ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  I’m a little conflicted about Telon Cusk. I don’t think the EV auto industry would be as far advanced today if not for his efforts; I think we’d have gotten here eventually, but maybe a decade or two later.
  
  Same with the space industry. I wish that, instead, NASA would have been well-funded and space would have remained a science-first (with hidden military objectives; that was unavoidable) effort, but Tusk stepping in and pushing created a new space race where governments had failed.
  
  He created neither Tesla nor SpaceX, nor was he the technical mind behind them; but his pumping money into them and his grandstanding did a lot to motivate other players in those industries.
  
  Does that good outweigh his fundamental evil nature? Probably not. But he has been instrumental in some good advancements.
  
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Mr_Fish@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
I think there’s a big element of selective memory here. We love hearing about underdog stories, because they’re such a good show of courage, selflessness, and other great virtues. This means we are more likely to remember the parts of history where the underdog is the good guy.

On the other hand, I think you do have a point. Those who have the hardest fight to make the change they want, are the most likely to do it for selfless reasons. It makes much more sense to put yourself at risk if you aren’t fighting for yourself. So while wrong but well-meaning underdogs seem possible to me, actually bad people who just want to be on top aren’t likely to take the underdog route.

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- 11111one11111@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  So I just had this realization that I think is what you are describing and I have genuinely never noticed it until the comment I replied to in the screenshot from this earlier in this thread. (I’m on mobile and don’t know how to link comments so I just screenshotted it. If you can’t read it then just look at the comments a couple below yours.)
  
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dragontamer@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
Pretty much any criminal gang scenario.

Take crypto coins for example. By using crypto coins and anonymizers you are avoiding the Goliath of the FBI and other monetary controls.

But you are supporting literal human trafficking and slavery, sanctions avoidance and ultimately benefiting Russia, North Korea and Iran.

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Rhynoplaz@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
Confirmation Bias!

These make GREAT stories! These are the historical moments that get passed down.

So, we’ve got the tale of America breaking free from the British Empire, but you know what stories you haven’t heard? All the times the British Empire took over and kept the land it stole from underdogs. You don’t get called an Empire without multiple successful takeovers.

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- 11111one11111@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  So I thought about the confirmation bias affect and feel like it wasn’t overly relevant anymore even though it has been in the past. I do not doubt there were stories of the hero conquering savages but as we see it now those depictions are largely understood as the conquering nation being the bad guy.
  
  If anything confirmation bias in today’s history books happens through omiting of unfavorable shit governments do.
  
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DrunkenPirate@feddit.org ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
Don‘t you call a „bad“ underdog in other words? Just like gangster, criminal, activist, terrorist, …

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- ivanafterall@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  “Low-life” and “scumbag” are kind of the shitty versions of underdogs.
  
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- 11111one11111@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  Shit that’s a fucking good one. This is the type of responses I was hoping for.
  
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iii@mander.xyz ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
en.wikipedia.org/…/List_of_serial_killers_active_…

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- 11111one11111@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
  I don’t understand the purpose of the link to a list of serial killers. Assuming this is your way of saying a serial killer is an under dog and bad person, do you care to explain why a serial killer is an under dog? They’re killing 1 person at a time usually and they are usually going to kill the person using a tool or weapon while the other person is unarmed and unknowing to what happened. Or am I missing something?
  
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  - iii@mander.xyz ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
    They’re up against the entirety of police forces, the judicial system, and looked down upon by most of society. Quite the underdog, no?
    
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Misspelledusernme@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨year⁩ ago
By the end of ww2, the nazis were the underdogs.

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