Comment on Tesla’s Autopilot and Full Self-Driving linked to hundreds of crashes, dozens of deaths

kava@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

• Blackmist@feddit.uk ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  The question isn’t “are they safer than the average human driver?”

  The question is “who goes to prison when that self driving car has an oopsie, veers across three lanes of traffic and wipes out a family of four?”

  Because if the answer is “nobody”, they shouldn’t be on the road. There’s zero accountability, and because it’s all wibbly-wobbly AI bullshit, there’s no way to prove that the issues are actually fixed.

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  • Trollception@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    So it’s better to put more lives in danger so that there can be someone to blame?

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    • Blackmist@feddit.uk ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Accountability is important. If a human driver is dangerous, they get taken off the roads and/or sent to jail. If a self driving car kills somebody, it’s just “oops, oh well, these things happen, but shareholder make a lot of money so never mind”.

      I do not want “these things happen” on my headstone.

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      • Tja@programming.dev ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        So you would prefer to have higher chances of dying, just to write “Joe Smith did it” on it?

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      • ipkpjersi@lemmy.ml ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        But if a human driver is dangerous, and gets put in jail or get taken off the roads, there are another 3 or more dangerous human drivers already taking their place. If the rate of accidents and rate of fatal accidents with self-driving vehicles is way down versus human drivers, you are actually risking your life more by trusting in human drivers and taking way more risks that way.

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  • dream_weasel@sh.itjust.works ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    The answer is the person behind the wheel.

    Tesla makes it very clear to the driver they you still have to pay attention and be ready to take over any time. Full self driving engages the in cabin nanny cam to enforce that you pay attention, above and beyond the frequent reminders to apply turning force to the steering wheel.

    Now, once Tesla goes Mercedes and says you don’t have to pay attention, it’s gonna be the company that should step in. I know that’s a big old SHOULD, but right now that’s not the situation anyway.

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    • exanime@lemmy.today ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Now, once Tesla goes Mercedes and says you don’t have to pay attention, it’s gonna be the company that should step in

      That doesn’t give me warm and fuzzies either… Imagine a poor dude having to fight Mercedes or Testla because he was crippled by a sleeping driver and bad AI… Not even counting the lobbying that would certainly happen to reduce and then eliminate their liability

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    • AProfessional@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      That’s today because “full self driving” doesn’t exist yet but when it does?

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      • dream_weasel@sh.itjust.works ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        There will be legal battles for sure. I don’t know how you can argue for anything besides the manufacturer taking responsibility. I don’t know how that doesn’t end up with auto pilot fatalities treated as a class where there’s a lookup table of payouts though. This is the intersection of liability and money/power, so it’s functionally uncharted territory at least in the US.

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  • ipkpjersi@lemmy.ml ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    The question isn’t “are they safer than the average human driver?”

    How is that not the question? That absolutely is the question. Just because someone is accountable for your death doesn’t mean you aren’t already dead, it doesn’t bring you back to life. If the death rate for self-driving vehicles is really that much lower, you are risking your life that much more by trusting in human drivers.

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    • ShepherdPie@midwest.social ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Yeah that person’s take seems a little unhinged as throwing people in prison after a car accident only happens if they’re intoxicated or driving recklessly. These systems don’t have to be perfect to save lives. They just have to be better than the average driver.

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      • Tja@programming.dev ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        Hell, let’s put the threshold at “better than 99% of drivers”, because every driver I know thinks they are better than average.

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    • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Exactly.

      We should solve the accountability problem, but the metric should be lives and accidents. If the self-driving system proves it causes fewer accidents and kills fewer people, it should be preferred. Full stop.

      Throwing someone in jail may be cathartic, but the goal is fewer issues on the road, not more people in jail.

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      • Blackmist@feddit.uk ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        Because I’m sure that’s what corporations are interested in.

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  • kava@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Because if the answer is “nobody”, they shouldn’t be on the road

    Do you understand how absurd this is? Let’s say AI driving results in 50% less deaths. That’s 20,000 people every year that isn’t going to die.

    And you reject that for what? Accountability? You said in another comment that you don’t want “shit happens sometimes” on your headstone.

    You do realize that’s exactly what’s going on the headstones of those 40,000 people that die annually right now? Car accidents happen. We all know they happen and we accept them as a necessary evil. “Shit happens”

    By not changing it, ironically, you’re advocating for exactly what you claim you’re against.

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    • exanime@lemmy.today ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Hmmm I get you point but you seem to be taken the cavalier position of one who’d never be affected.

      Let’s proposed this alternative scenario: AI is 50% safer and would reduce death from 40k to 20k a year if adopted. However, the 20k left will include your family and, unfortunately , there is no accountability therefore, nobody will pay to help raise your orphan nephew or help grandma now that your grandpa died ran over by a Tesla… Would you approve AI driving going forward?

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      • kava@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        A) you do realize cars have insurance and when someone hits you, that insurance pays out the damages, right? That is how the current system works, AI driver or not.

        Accidents happen. Humans make mistakes and kill people and are not held criminally liable. It happens.

        If some guy killed your nephew and made him an orphan and the justice system determined he was not negligent - then your nephew would still be an orphan and would get a payout by the insurance company.

        Exact same thing that happens in the case of an AI driven car hitting someone

        B) if I had a button to save 100k people but it killed my mother, I wouldn’t do it. What is your point?

        Using your logic, if your entire family was in the 20,000 who would be saved - you would prefer them dead? You’d rather them dead with “accountability” rather than alive?

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      • sugar_in_your_tea@sh.itjust.works ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        Yes, unless you mean I need to literally sacrifice my family. But if my family was randomly part of the 20k, I’d defend self-driving cars if they are proven to be safer.

        I’m very much a statistics-based person, so I’ll defend the statistically better option. In fact, me being part of that 20k gives me a larger than usual platform to discuss it.

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  • Maddier1993@programming.dev ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    I don’t agree with your argument.

    Making a human go to prison for wiping out a family of 4 isn’t going to bring back the family of 4. So you’re just using deterrence to hopefully make drivers more cautious.

    Yet, year after year… humans cause more deaths by negligence than tools can cause by failing.

    The question is definitely “How much safer are they compared to human drivers”

    It’s also much easier to prove that the system has those issues fixed compared to training a human hoping that their critical faculties are intact. Rigorous Software testing and mechanical testing are within legislative reach and can be made strict requirements.

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  • John_McMurray@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    The driver. Your whole statement is a total straw man.

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  • slumberlust@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    The question for me is not what margins the feature is performing on, as they will likely be better than human error raters, but how they market the product irresponsiblely.

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  • TypicalHog@lemm.ee ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Well, it should obviously be the owner of the car.

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• machinin@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I was looking up info for another comment and found this site. It’s from 2021, but the information seems solid.

  www.flyingpenguin.com/?p=35819

  This table was probably most interesting, unfortunately the formatting doesn’t work on mobile, but I think you can make sense of it.

  Car 2021 Sales So Far Total Deaths Tesla Model S 5,155 40 Porsche Taycan 5,367 ZERO Tesla Model X 6,206 14 Volkswagen ID 6,230 ZERO Audi e-tron 6,884 ZERO Nissan Leaf 7,729 2 Ford Mustang Mach-e 12,975 ZERO Chevrolet Bolt 20,288 1 Tesla Model 3 51,510 87

  So many cars with zero deaths compared to Tesla.

  It isn’t if Tesla’s FSD is safer than humans, it’s if it’s keeping up with the automotive industry in terms of safety features. It seems like they are falling behind (despite what their marketing team claims).

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  • dream_weasel@sh.itjust.works ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    That’s kind of a tough article to trust if I’m being honest. It may in fact be true, but it’s an opinion piece.

    I find it a little weird to look only within sales for the year and also not to discuss the forms of autopilot or car use cases.

    For example, are we talking about highway only driving, lane keeping assist, end to end residential urban, rural unmarked roads? Some of these are harder problems than others. How about total mileage as well? I’m not sure what the range is on a Nissan leaf, but I think comparing it to a Taycan or mach e seems disingenuous.

    All that being said, yeah Tesla has a lot of deaths comparatively, but still way less than regular human drivers. I worry that a truly autonomous experience will not be available until and unless a manufacturer like Tesla pushes the limits on training data and also the fed responds by making better laws. Considering Elon douchiness, I’m also kinda happy Tesla is doing that and catching flak, but paving the way for more established manufacturers.

    We were early adopters of Tesla, and trust me the cars are made cheap and the “autopilot” drives like shit even now, but it’s amazing the progress that has been made in the last 6 years.

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    • machinin@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      You’re happy that a racist, misogynist billionaire whose companies have some of the worst employee safety data in the industries he’s involved in is pushing these cars onto public roads? Musk doesn’t care about our safety. Like everything else, he lies about it to make money.

      We have no clue if Tesla’s are safer than humans drivers in any other car. Tesla publishes those charts, but the data is no where to be found.

      Musk lies to make money. You can’t trust anything Tesla publishes.

      I don’t want Tesla testing their shit on the public roads and putting me at risk so that Musk can make more money. I don’t opt in to be one of his beta testers.

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      • dream_weasel@sh.itjust.works ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        We get it, you hate Elon Musk. That’s a fine position to take.

        You are beta testing for anyone and everyone who is doing anything on the road. You can say “look at this lending tree report” and see accident rates, or look at the article you posted, and compare to human drivers to know which is safer. Or you can say it’s an unknowable lie in which case why are we citing anything besides you saying I hate Musk? Again valid.

        He’s making money regardless, so yeah I’m glad that spaceX lands reusable boosters and Tesla pushes the limits of what is possible with an EV so at least we get something back. Considering how many other people hate the shit out of Tesla, I’m sure every time someone hits a raccoon in a Tesla we will get to read about it.

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  • TypicalHog@lemm.ee ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    [deleted]

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    • petrol_sniff_king@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      If not, that would indicate that this newfangled self-driving is more dangerous than a little ol’ “caught in the stone-age” Nissan Leaf, wouldn’t it?

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• ipkpjersi@lemmy.ml ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I think people are just trying to hate on Tesla because it’s Elon (and fair enough) rather than self-driving itself. Although there’s also the side of things that self-driving vehicles are already safer than human-driven ones, have lower rates of accidents, etc but people expect there to be zero accidents whatsoever with self-driving which is why I think self-driving may never actually take off and become mainstream.

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  • TypicalHog@lemm.ee ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Their competitors? Which of their competitor has self-driving at the same level as Tesla (so we can compare)?

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    • petrol_sniff_king@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      If their level of self-driving is so new and revolutionary, maybe it should be kept in the oven to bake a little longer.

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    • axo@feddit.de ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      Everyone…? KIA, Mercedes, BMW, etc, etc

      Their modes are just not as “confident” as teslas, when its auto pilot feature is running over a child.

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• ChaoticEntropy@feddit.uk ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I would highlight that not all Teslas will be being driven in this mode on a regular basis, if ever.

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  • NikkiDimes@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    For example, I dont really trust mine and mostly use it in slow bumper to bumper traffic, or so I can adjust my AC on the touchscreen without swerving around in my lane.

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    • Tja@programming.dev ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      If you adjust your AC frequently, map it to the left scroll wheel.

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• suction@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Only Elon calls his level 2 automation “FSD” or even “Autopilot”. That alone proves that Tesla is more guilty of these deaths than other makers are who choose less evil marketing terms

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