Comment on Don't eat that

FrowingFostek@lemmy.world ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

• Cowbee@lemmy.ml ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  I’m not an ML, but you don’t have to agree with MLs to understand that they are fundamentally leftist and opposed to Capitalism.

  “Leftism” isn’t a synonym for “good,” it’s a broad, diverse range of ideologies supporting collective ownership and opposing hierarchy. This can be done well, this can be done poorly, and it is important to recognize both the good and the bad to learn and build, not to dismiss everything as “not true leftism” if it isn’t what you personally want.

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  • zephr_c@lemm.ee ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    When someone supports fascist regimes and spouts fascist talking points they are what they are, no matter what they like to call themselves. The Nazis called themselves socialist, too.

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    • Cowbee@lemmy.ml ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      That’s not correct, though. MLs don’t support fascist regimes.

      MLs have a long history with deep theoretical frameworks, which is why just calling them fascists and right-wingers gets you exactly nowhere with them, and ignores their genuine Proletarian perspective.

      Even this post, for example, has people correctly pointing out how the USSR kept the Nazi scientists on a tight leash, then deported them after they had sufficient intelligence, while the western states kept the Nazis and allowed them into important offices.

      If you want to genuinely combat MLs, then you have to appeal to them from a materialist perspective, and showcase sound theoretical basis to defeat Capitalism and Imperialism globally.

      If you just dismiss MLs as right-wingers, you genuinely showcase a lack of understanding of leftist history in general, and don’t actually succeed in combating ML mindsets.

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      • Stovetop@lemmy.world ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        That’s not correct, though. MLs don’t support fascist regimes.

        Well, some people who call themselves Marxist-Leninists do. Those are Tankies.

        A rational ML person won’t support fascism, but there are a lot of so-called ML adherents who long for the trappings of the USSR to the extent that they don’t even care about its founding ideology; they care about putting a man into space, about strong nuclear arsenals, and about dismantling the corrupt West. Hence why so many Tankies fall in line behind the Putin regime for no reason other than that he is aesthetically “the glory days of Russia” and has made himself an enemy of the West, despite all of the fascism which fills the gaps.

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      • zephr_c@lemm.ee ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        Wow, that was the longest and most pretentious “nuh-uh” I’ve ever seen. You realize that we are specifically talking about people who support fascists, right? If you think you can rationally talk someone out of any belief, let alone one as irrational as fascism, then I’d love to see you try. It’d be funny.

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  • TokenBoomer@lemmy.world ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    Thank you. Socialism, Anarchism and Marxist-Leninism manifest differently based on the cultural and material needs of the population. Normies thinking every leftist is trying to recreate Soviet Union, Cuba or Maoist China doesn’t have the slightest understanding of what Marxism actually is and how it applies to present conditions.

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  • Leate_Wonceslace@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    MLs argue that socialism can’t be used to mobilize an economy as a way of justifying the actions of Lenin, Stalin, etc. this is a fundamentally anti-socialist stance.

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    • Cowbee@lemmy.ml ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      That’s not really accurate to what MLs argue, they believe that you can’t have Communism without having built it up via a Socialist state beforehand. They still strongly support worker ownership and oppose Imperialism and Capitalism, which is my point, because the foundational beliefs are good, they can be reasoned with.

      The Proletariat in general can be reasoned with, that’s the entire purpose of class consciousness. Reactionaries found in the petite bourgeoisie and bourgeoisie proper are not capable of truly being reasoned with at a wide level, but fellow proletarians can be.

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      • Leate_Wonceslace@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨8⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        Socialist state

        The thing that MLs consider a “socialist state” is capitalism where the state is a universal employer, which is decidedly not socialism.

        They still strongly support worker ownership

        Lenin destroyed the worker’s councils, and I’ve met multiple MLs who consider co-ops to be a bourgeois institution in disguise.

        oppose Imperialism

        That’s a common story, and also an outright lie. See: literally every time they defend Russian imperialism.

        they can be reasoned with

        Only if they’re honest in their delusions, which most of them aren’t.

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