The crazier and stupier shit was that part of his justification was that “people drive and they only have eyes. We should be able to do the same.”
Comment on Tesla Whistleblower Says 'Autopilot' System Is Not Safe Enough To Be Used On Public Roads
cm0002@lemmy.world 6 months ago
I lost all trust in their ‘Autopilot’ the day I read Musk said (Paraphrasing) “All we need are cameras, there’s no need for secondary/tertiary LIDAR or other expensive setups”
Like TFYM? No backups?? Or backups to the backups?? On a life fucking critical system?!
mosiacmango@lemm.ee 6 months ago
tcely@fosstodon.org 6 months ago
That's terrifying for showing how little he understands about the problem he is attempting to solve.
Humans use up to four senses at times to accomplish the task of driving.
Ranvier@sopuli.xyz 6 months ago
I can add more, we don’t only have five senses. Elementary school propoganda that is. Here’s all the ones I can think of while driving.
- Vision
- Hearing
- Tactile feedback from wheel, pedals, you could break this down further into skin tactile pressure receptors, and also receptors of muscle tension, though muscle tension and stretching receptors also involved in number 4
- Proprioception, where your limbs and body are in space
- Rotational acceleration (semi circular canals)
- Linear acceleration (utricle and saccule)
- Smell, okay this might be a stretch but, some engine issues can be smelly
And that doesn’t even consider higher order processing and actual integration of all these things which despite all it’s gains with Ai recently can’t match all the capabilities of the brain to integrate all that information or deal with novel stimuli. Point is Elon, add more sensors to your dang cars so they’re less likely to kill people. And people aren’t even perfect at driving, why would we limit it to only our senses anyways? So dumb
SSUPII@sopuli.xyz 6 months ago
Licking the steering wheel makes it five
ChaoticEntropy@feddit.uk 6 months ago
“Tastes like danger.”
Akasazh@feddit.nl 6 months ago
Reminds me of Mao not brushing his teeth, because tigers didn’t brush theirs either.
RainyRat@lemmy.world 6 months ago
Did he also eat his meat raw and sleep in trees?
Akasazh@feddit.nl 6 months ago
Nah that would be silly.
Did deflower a generation of young girls though, who would suffer the agony of his presumed halitosis
JohnEdwa@sopuli.xyz 6 months ago
Ah, but you see, his reasoning is that what if the camera and lidar disagree, then what? With only a camera based system, there is only one truth with no conflicts!
Like when the camera sees the broad side of a truck as clear skies and slams right at it, there was never any conflict anywhere, everything went just as it was suppo… Wait, shit.
brbposting@sh.itjust.works 6 months ago
sees the broad side of a white truck as clear skies and slams right at it
The truck driver, Frank Baressi, 62, told the Associated Press that the Tesla driver Joshua Brown, 40, was “playing Harry Potter on the TV screen” during the collision and was driving so fast that “he went so fast through my trailer I didn’t see him”.
girthero@lemmy.world 6 months ago
he went so fast through my trailer I didn’t see him”.
Lidar would still prevail over stupidity in this situation. It does a better job detecting massive objects cars can’t go through.
DreadPotato@sopuli.xyz 6 months ago
what if the camera and lidar disagree, then what?
This (sensor fusion) is a valid issue in mobile robotics. Adding more sensors doesn’t necessarily improve stability or reliability.
ZapBeebz_@lemmy.world 6 months ago
After a point, yes. However, that point comes when the sensor you are adding is more than the second type in the system. The correct answer is to work into your algorithm a weighting system so the car can decide which sensor it trusts to not kill the driver, i.e. if the LIDAR sees the broadside of a trailer and the camera doesn’t, the car should believe the LIDAR over the camera, as applying the brakes and speeding into the obstacle at 60mph is likely the safer option.
DreadPotato@sopuli.xyz 6 months ago
Yes the solution is fairly simple in theory, implementing this is significantly harder, which is why it is not a trivial issue to solve in robotics.
I’m not saying their decision was the right one, just that his argument with multiple sensors creating noise in the decision-making is a completely valid argument.
Gargantu8@lemmy.world 6 months ago
What brand of car has better autopilot with other sensors?
ImFresh3x@sh.itjust.works 6 months ago
Uhhhh…
…any level 4 car actually, according to the federal governments and all the agencies who regulate this stuff.
NAVYA, Volvo/Audi, Mercedes, magna, baidu, Waymo.
Tesla isn’t even trying to go past level 3 at this point.
Gargantu8@lemmy.world 6 months ago
Why the fuck did I get down voted for looking for an ev Tesla alternative… This place makes no sense. Are you all Tesla fan boys or what?
chakan2@lemmy.world 6 months ago
It sounded like sarcasm rather than an honest question. Like “Find me a better autopilot” rather than “What manufacturer would you recommend for autopilot?”
chakan2@lemmy.world 6 months ago
What brand of car has better autopilot with other sensors?
All of them.
chitak166@lemmy.world 6 months ago
To be fair, humans have proven all you need are visual receptors to navigate properly.
Maalus@lemmy.world 6 months ago
To be fair, current computers / AI / whatever marketing name you call them aren’t as good as human brains.
chitak166@lemmy.world 6 months ago
No, but they can be improved to the point where all that’s necessary are cameras and the means to control the vehicle.
Maalus@lemmy.world 6 months ago
I take it you are an expert in the field to be saying this?
0xD@infosec.pub 6 months ago
Visual receptors… And 3-dimensional vision with all the required processing and decision making behind that based on the visual stimuli, lol.
cm0002@lemmy.world 6 months ago
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And how many vehicle accidents and deaths are there today? Proven that humans suck at driving maybe
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No we don’t, we use sight, sound and touch/feeling to drive at a minimum
chitak166@lemmy.world 6 months ago
Touch? Sure, barely. But you can drive without being able to hear.
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lefaucet@slrpnk.net 6 months ago
Bot to be a hard-on about it, but if the cameras hace any problem autopilot ejects gracefully and hands it over to the driver.
I aint no elon dicj rider, but I got FSD andd the radar would see manhole covers and freak the fuck out. It was annoying as hell and pissed my wife off. The optical depth estimation is now far more useful than the radar sensor.
Lidar has severe problems too. I’ve used it many times professionally for mapping spaces. Reflective surfaces fuck it up. It delivers bad data frequently.
Cameras will eventually be great! Really they already are, but they’ll get orders of magnitude better. Yeah 4 years ago the ai failed to recognize a rectagle as a truck, but it aint done learning yet.
That driver really should have been paying attention. Thee car fucking tells you to all the time.
If a camera has a problem the whole system aborts.
In the future this will mean the car will pull over, but it’'s, as it makes totally fucking clear, in beta. So for now it aborts and passes control to the human that is payong attention.
BaronDoggystyleVonWoof@lemmy.world 6 months ago
So I drive a tesla as well. Quite often I get the message that the camera is blocked by something (like sun, fog, heavy rain).
You can’t have a reliable self driving system if that is the case.
Furthermore, isn’t it technically possible to train the lidar and radar with Ai as well?
DreadPotato@sopuli.xyz 6 months ago
Furthermore, isn’t it technically possible to train the lidar and radar with Ai as well?
Of course it is, both the cameras and lidar work in vector-space. The big difference is that a camera feed holds a lot more information to feed the AI straining with than a lidar feed ever will.
NeoNachtwaechter@lemmy.world 6 months ago
any problem autopilot ejects gracefully and hands it over to the driver.
Gracefully? LMAO
You can come back when it gives at least 3 minutes warning time in advance, so that I can wake up, get my hands out of the woman, climb into the driver seat, find my glasses somewhere, look around where we are, and then I tell that effing autopilot that it’s okay and it is allowed to disengage now!
elephantium@lemmy.world 6 months ago
ejects gracefully and hands it over to the driver
This is exactly the problem. If I’m driving, I need to be alert to the driving tasks and what’s happening on the road.
If I’m not driving because I’m using autopilot, … I still need to be alert to the driving tasks and what’s happening on the road. It’s all of the work with none of the fun of driving.
Fuck that. What I want is a robot chauffer, not a robot version of everyone’s granddad who really shouldn’t be driving anymore.
lefaucet@slrpnk.net 6 months ago
After many brilliant people trying for decades, it seems you can’t get the robot chauffeur without several billion miles of actual driving data, sifted and sorted into what is safe, good driving and what is not.
chakan2@lemmy.world 6 months ago
ejects gracefully and hands it over to the driver.
Just in time to slam you into an emergency vehicle at 80…but hey…autopilot wasn’t on during the impact, not Musk’s fault.
lefaucet@slrpnk.net 6 months ago
Nah, with hands on the wheel, looking at the road, the driver, who agrees they will pay attention, will have disengaged the system long before it gets to that point.
The system’s super easy to disengage.
It’s also getting better every year.
5 years ago my car could barely change lanes on the highway. Now it navigates lefts at 5 way lighted intersections in big city traffic with idiots blocking the intersection and suicidal cyclists running red lights as well as it was changing lanes on highway… And highway lane changes are extremely reliable. Cant remember my last lane change disengagement. Same car; just better software.
I bet 5 years from now it’ll be statistically safer than humans… Maybe not same car. Hope it’s my car too, but it’s unclear if that processor is sufficient…
Anyway, it’ll keep improving from there.
noxy@yiffit.net 6 months ago
good thing regular cameras aren’t affected by reflective surfaces
oh wait
Ottomateeverything@lemmy.world 6 months ago
As much as I lost trust in his bullshittery a long time ago, his need to mention the cost of critical safety systems is what stuck out to me the most here. That’s how you know the priorities are backwards.
TheRealKuni@lemmy.world 6 months ago
Also, my robot vacuum has LiDAR. It’s not expensive relative to a car.
frozen@lemmy.frozeninferno.xyz 6 months ago
Skimping on cost is how disasters happen. Ask Richard Hammond. “Spared no expense” my ass, hire more than 2 programmers, you cheap fuck.
ericisshort@lemmy.world 6 months ago
Were Richard Hammond’s many crashes a result of cost skimping? If so, I had no idea. Could you elaborate?
gravitas_deficiency@sh.itjust.works 6 months ago
I was under the impression that Hammond’s serious crashes were a combination of bad luck and getting a bit too spicy when driving in some already-risky situations. I, too, would appreciate some corroboration.
MonkeMischief@lemmy.today 6 months ago
As someone who hasn’t much watched Top Gear, I was cracking up at your Jurassic Park reference until I saw your edit and was like “Wait a minute.”
Top Gear? Jurassic Park? Either way: Hold on to your butts.
😆