I’m not sure I’ve ever seen Autist used as an insult on Wallstreetbets, it’s usually people referring to themselves as autists.
Comment on It makes me shudder
SaraTonin@lemmy.world 3 days agoSay it was Black instead. Can you not see how describing someone as “a black” could be dehumanising?
I am autistic. I am an autist.
I am schizophrenic. I am a schizoid.
I have Down’s Syndrome. I am a Down’s.
Or just disability in general.
I am blind. I am a blindist.
I am deaf. I am a deafist.
Or even just other self-describing words.
I am old. I am an oldist.
I am tall. I am a tallist.
I have zero insecurities about being autistic. I also dislike coy phrases like “on the spectrum”, which have the implication that there’s something wrong with saying that someone is autistic. Like it’s something to be ashamed of. It’s fine. I am autistic. You can say I’m autistic. That’s cool.
But that doesn’t mean that I should accept a term just because that’s what 4chan, WallStreetBets, and Gab popularised by using to put us down either by using it ironically or just by straight-up using it as an insult. You can make an argument for reclamation, perhaps, but I don’t think we’re there.
And, and perhaps this is just me, but isn’t it a horrible word? Phonetically?
As I’ve said, there seems to be no consensus in the autism community and one dividing line appears to be America vs. the UK
Ilovethebomb@sh.itjust.works 3 days ago
sp3ctr4l@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 days ago
Exactly.
People assume its an insult, because they assume someone calling themself or another an autist… is deragatory.
Which only makes sense if you presume that it is bad to be autistic or an autist.
… Many autists do not see it this way.
They are offended by the idea that somebody would think it is an insult, though.
SaraTonin@lemmy.world 3 days ago
Yes, that’s the irony. It’s allistic people calling themselves “autists” because they have a strong interest in something and act in stupid ways
To illustrate how it’s used there, you only need to look at the terms that it’s interchangable with: “idiots”, “smooth-brained”, and the r-word. This is not an example of positive representation
Lumidaub@feddit.org 3 days ago
“This is an American.”
You don’t need to accept a term you don’t like for yourself but others may not mind.
Btw, autistic brains exist outside the UK and the US. In German, it’s becoming more common to say “Menschen mit Autismus” (people with autism) but I suspect that’s actually more to do with an effort to de-gender because constructions like “Autistinnen und Autisten” (female autists and male autists) are clunky.
Also, your “blindist” and “deafist” don’t exist in English which is why they sound weird, they do exist in German.
SaraTonin@lemmy.world 3 days ago
The “American” one would suggest “an autistic”, rather than “an autist”, no? He is American, he is an American.
You don’t need to accept a term you don’t like for yourself but others may not mind
I’ve said repeatedly that this isn’t a settled debate within the autism community, and at no point have I suggested that other people aren’t free to use whatever terms they want
Btw, autistic brains exist outside the UK and the US
I understand that. I’m specifically talking about the English word “autist”. Ich rede nicht über Deutsch.
Also, your “blindist” and “deafist” don’t exist in English which is why they sound weird
I suppose that asks the question why is “autistic” one of (if not the) only example with a dedicated noun?
Lumidaub@feddit.org 3 days ago
The “American” one would suggest “an autistic”, rather than “an autist”, no? He is American, he is an American.
This may be an issue with English not differentiating precisely between most nouns and adjectives relating to countries. In my head “an American” is clearly a noun but that might be me. Better examples might be “a New Yorker” or “a Londoner”.
I’ve said repeatedly that this isn’t a settled debate within the autism community, and at no point have I suggested that other people aren’t free to use whatever terms they want
You did say you don’t want to accept a term just because it’s popular and I was agreeing to that. The fact that we’re talking about this seemed to suggest to me that you felt at least some pressure to conform to what everybody else is saying.
I understand that. I’m specifically talking about the English word “autist”. Ich rede nicht über Deutsch.
And I was drawing parallels between two very closely related languages of two closely related cultures. The words “autist” and “Autist/Autistin” are obviously related so it’s interesting to see if there’s differences in how they’re used and what they are.
I suppose that asks the question why is “autistic” one of (if not the) only example with a dedicated noun?
Language is under no obligation to be consistent and logical. Speakers of English for some reason didn’t see need for dedicated nouns here and they dropped out of use (or never developed in the first place). Why English doesn’t have a word for “doch” is beyond me but here we are. English also doesn’t have dedicated nouns for “person from [country]”, as we established above. Does that mean anything profound in particular? To my mind it suggests simply that English somehow tends to prefer adjectives.
SaraTonin@lemmy.world 3 days ago
The fact that we’re talking about this seemed to suggest to me that you felt at least some pressure to conform to what everybody else is saying.
No, not at all. There is no pressure I’ve encountered to use the term “autist”, and if I did feel pressure to conform on this subject I wouldn’t have continued to discuss it after my initial post was downvoted
sp3ctr4l@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 days ago
I am there.
That is exactly what I am doing.
Yep, autists are in fact different from other people, here I am, let me tell you and show you what’s real and what is a harmful, false stereotype, or a common misunderstanding.
I’m also bi, queer.
Pretty sure the term queer had to be reclaimed, just like fag/faggot did, and was.
Autism and/or autists have for decades now suffered massively from being described and defined and represented in media by non-autists who perpetuate many extremely offensive and innacurate caricatures and misunderstsndings of autism.
It rarely occurs to a non autistic person to just actually ask an autistic person ‘hey, what is it like to be autistic?’
We have tons of examples of ‘autistic coded’ characters in media being actually more accurate depictions of autism… than of characters that are explicitly stated to be autistic.
We have tons of even academics and psychologists/therapists that have basicslly only a surface level/caricature understanding of autism, you basically have to specialize in it, or just actually be autistic yourself to understand it better.
We have to represent ourselves, or we will continue to be misrepresented and misunderstood.
Anyway, as to the linguistics of ending a word with -ist seeming awkward to you…
Economist. Scientist. Artist. Martial Artist. Dentist. Journalist. Pianist. Pharmacist. Biologist. Dendochronologist. Archaelogist. Anthropologist.
Tourist. Cyclist. Motorcyclist.
Capitalist. Marxist. Anarchist. Pacifist. Environmentalist.
Optimist. Pessimist. Nilhist. Absurdist.
You’re categorizing Autist as a word that indicates disability.
I’m categorizing it as a word that indicates common activities, knowledge sets, capabilities, skill sets, thought patterns, ways of thinking.
Autism is not a disability, to me.
Its a different way of existing, of being, one that is inherently not alterable.
Aside about Deaf Culture
(Talk to a lot of people born deaf and they’ll often tell you the same, there’s a whole culture there, you’ll wind up with things like deaf people getting ostracized from the deaf community if/when they get implants or treatments that allow them to hear… I’m not deaf, I’m not well-versed in this, but I’ve known enough deaf people and people who work or interact with deaf people that I do know this is a thing)
We can mask, we can try to pretend to be ‘normal’, we can even sometimes get pretty good at it, but it causes massive mental and physical overload and can lead to autistic burnout.
Or… we can just be ourselves and be more or less fine, if other people approach the concept of an autistic person more accurately, more realistically, with more humility than pre-baked stereotypes.
SaraTonin@lemmy.world 3 days ago
All the words you cited describe what people do or believe. Not what people are
I think it clearly is
There’s a saying “everybody has different abilities and needs, but ‘disability’ is a product of society”. You yourself list some of the struggles that we face. And these struggles more often than not have consequences beyond what you list - lack of employment, isolation, barriers to healthcare. Hell, our lifespans are shorter on average than allistic people. 5-10 years without any mental health comorbidities, and up to 20+ in people with comorbidities
All from existing in a society which is built around other people’s needs and which doesn’t account for ours
I don’t see how it can even be a question. And I say that as someone who firmly believes that if the stats were reversed and we made up 98-99% of the population and allistic people made up 1-2% of the population they would be the ones considered disabled because society would actually be built around us
And let’s not start shrugging off the term “disability” as if that itself is something to be shunned or ashamed of. There’s enough stigma around disability - particularly mental disability - without having it also come from inside the house
sp3ctr4l@lemmy.dbzer0.com 3 days ago
… I do not the mental bandwidth to attempt to fully delve into the level of linguistic/philosophical implications of you drawing that as a dividing line.
Its an element of one’s identity.
Many people very much would say they are what they do, be it professionally, or in their free time.
I love food, I’m a foodie, I’m a gardener, I like to tend to gardens, etc.
… As to the ‘disability is when society treats you differently’ line of thinking…
Ok, then being poor, or a minority ethnicity is a disability. So is being a child of a single parent, so is not having access to adequate education.
My understanding of disability is I guess much more directly related to the human body, of which the mind, being essentially an ongoing activity performed by the brain, an element of the body, is a part.
I would consider a person with dyslexia to have a mental disability, because there are basically only detrimental effects to one’s ability to perform a common mental task.
I would consider having only one fully functional leg to be a disability, as it significantly impedes many otherwise common tasks, not too many direct upsides to that.
Autism?
Autism is unironically my superpower.
I am very skilled at complex data analysis, I notice details others miss, I tend to be much more objective and blunt by default, which is very beneficial when dealing with data and systems, but I also notice tons of microexpressions and tonality variations that make it possible for me to be extremely empathetic, when I’m not too exhausted by the mental energy I need to expend to do that.
I can think systemically and specifically in a greater capacity and with greater ease than most non autists I’ve met. As such, I can write code, design mechanical things.
I can plan out beneficial routines and strategies for many socioeconomic scenarios, I have a comparatively heightened sense of my own explicit train of thought that allows me to know when I am getting emotionally disregulated to the point that I need to take a break and calm down, avoid burnout.
… My point here with all this is that I view Autism as more of … well, what it literally is, a different paradigm by which a brain and mind operate.
And many of these things do grant abilities and propensities that are directly beneficial to many parts of just being a human doing human stuff, as well as being a person in a society.
Yes, Autism also comes with many drawbacks, compared to the baseline neurotypical.
But this is how I see it, why I don’t see it as a disability in the same way you do.
Basically, I see it as a kind of different character build, or class, in an RPG.
Drawbacks in some areas, balanced out by aptitude in others.
Yeah, it may net out to generally being not overall positive, for the aggregate of people who are autistic.
But its not the same thing as a ‘disability’, which to me, is basically just a clear detriment, with no upsides.
Here’s maybe a thought experiment:
Say that somehow, a human is born with tetrachromatic vision, can see colors other people can’t, but also, is overwhelmed by many common visual scenarios that don’t bother most people at all.
… Is this a disability?
Or a superpower?
… Or is it a different kind of being different?
SaraTonin@lemmy.world 3 days ago
Allow me to provide a thought-experiment illustration of what I mean by disability being a product of society.
There are three workspaces.
The first is on the 14th floor. There are no ramps and no lifts. All doors are operated via keycard above head height. All areas, work and rest, have rows of desks and chairs, all as one unit like in a fast food place or a picnic table.
The second is on the ground floor. All doors are operated by keycard at waist height. All areas, work and rest, have large adjustable desks, movable chairs, and plenty of space.
The third is a multi-storey office. All stories are connected only by ramps which are designed to allow fast descent of wheeled appliances and have an in-built braking mechanism at the bottom. The up ramps have a “stair-lift”-type mechanism designed for the smooth movement of wheeled appliances. All ceilings are at shoulder-height. There are no chairs at all.
I think it’s trivial to see how wheelchair uses would be at a disadvantage in the first environment, wheelchair users and non-wheelchair users would be equal in the second, and non-wheelchair users would be at a disadvantage in the third
In each scenario, wheelchair users and non-wheelchair users have different abilities and needs, but which one of them would be “disabled” is a product of that environment
The irony here is that dyslexia advocates use the exact same “superpower” language as you. In fact, there is an emerging school of thought in psychiatry and psychology that autism, dyslexia, ADHD, and OCD may all be differing presentations of the same underlying condition, in the same way that autism and Asperger’s used to be considered different conditions
But let’s look at a different disability, for the sake of clarity. You yourself have spoken about deaf pride. Ask yourself this - would the kind of deaf person who would shun someone for getting a cochlear implant take kindly to you characterising deafness as only having a downside?
I think a lot of disability advocates would take issue with your characterisation of disability
It’s regressive, stigmatising, and potentially harmful given that it can discourage those who need help from asking for help, and often the only way to get help is through disability services - and legislation. The reason why it’s illegal for employers in the UK not to provide accommodations for autistic people is because of its classification as a disability under the Equalities Act of 2010
Besides, you seem to be doing something that’s depressingly common amongst autistic people - of treating autism as if it’s just level 1 autism, while dismissing and ignoring those who have greater needs. Some people need 24/7 care because of the way their autism manifests. These people count. They are just as much “one of us” as you or me
Also, BTW, tetrachromats exist