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Allow me to provide a thought-experiment illustration of what I mean by disability being a product of society.

There are three workspaces.

The first is on the 14th floor. There are no ramps and no lifts. All doors are operated via keycard above head height. All areas, work and rest, have rows of desks and chairs, all as one unit like in a fast food place or a picnic table.

The second is on the ground floor. All doors are operated by keycard at waist height. All areas, work and rest, have large adjustable desks, movable chairs, and plenty of space.

The third is a multi-storey office. All stories are connected only by ramps which are designed to allow fast descent of wheeled appliances and have an in-built braking mechanism at the bottom. The up ramps have a “stair-lift”-type mechanism designed for the smooth movement of wheeled appliances. All ceilings are at shoulder-height. There are no chairs at all.

I think it’s trivial to see how wheelchair uses would be at a disadvantage in the first environment, wheelchair users and non-wheelchair users would be equal in the second, and non-wheelchair users would be at a disadvantage in the third

In each scenario, wheelchair users and non-wheelchair users have different abilities and needs, but which one of them would be “disabled” is a product of that environment

I would consider a person with dyslexia to have a mental disability, because there are basically only detrimental effects to one’s ability to perform a common mental task.

The irony here is that dyslexia advocates use the exact same “superpower” language as you. In fact, there is an emerging school of thought in psychiatry and psychology that autism, dyslexia, ADHD, and OCD may all be differing presentations of the same underlying condition, in the same way that autism and Asperger’s used to be considered different conditions

But let’s look at a different disability, for the sake of clarity. You yourself have spoken about deaf pride. Ask yourself this - would the kind of deaf person who would shun someone for getting a cochlear implant take kindly to you characterising deafness as only having a downside?

I think a lot of disability advocates would take issue with your characterisation of disability

It’s regressive, stigmatising, and potentially harmful given that it can discourage those who need help from asking for help, and often the only way to get help is through disability services - and legislation. The reason why it’s illegal for employers in the UK not to provide accommodations for autistic people is because of its classification as a disability under the Equalities Act of 2010

Besides, you seem to be doing something that’s depressingly common amongst autistic people - of treating autism as if it’s just level 1 autism, while dismissing and ignoring those who have greater needs. Some people need 24/7 care because of the way their autism manifests. These people count. They are just as much “one of us” as you or me

Also, BTW, tetrachromats exist

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sp3ctr4l@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
I geneuinely do not understand the points you’re making.

In a world of all autists, no autist is disabled. That’s the third floor of your wheelchair analogy.

But… they would all still be autists.

Whereas in a world that I guess is managed by humanoid, ambulatory scifi robots that do all construction, to physically create and maintain wheelchair world…

The wheelchair folks are still disabled, they need the help of physically capable beings or things to exist in and maintain society.

… That is not the case for autism world.

Really what is the point you are driving at here?

Do what I just exampled right there, that’s how you determine disability vs something else.

Dyslexic world could probably function differently, but overall, basically fine. They’d probably invent different forms of communication and symbolic langauge that work better for them.

Deaf world?

Could work, depending on what level of technological/socilogical development you choose as your starting point.

But if you pick an technologically/sociologically early point, well, lots of predators and threats make noises.

To a great extent, I see what you are driving at, I suppose I am just trying to say that ‘disability’ is a hard thing to try to nail down with a very precise meaning.

Could we perhaps both agree that ‘disability’ requires considerstion from both the sociological and more direct, autonomy impacting viewpoints?

It also does seem to very much carry different connotations in the US vs UK.

You have clearly put a lot of thought into this, the vast majority of people I encounter are US, who are much more likely to simply view the term Autist as inherently an insult.

So, I apologize for the earlier snipe at you.

I assumed, and became an ass.

As to the level 1 vs other levels of Autism thing…

I’ve read a good deal of research pointing toward significantly different chemical and neuorological activity in the brain, where those with ‘severe’ (catatonic) autism… well, they can and have actually been treated for this.

Whereas those with level 1, non catatonic autism… no measurable effect, for that same treatment.

And, there are substantially different propoderances of various genetic markers beteeen those two groups as well, enough to be able to well predict ‘severity’ of autism with it.

So, no, actually, I am inclined to believe those are closer to two different things that have untill recently been thought of as different kinds of the same thing.

Again, I favor a very literal, materialistic and mechanical approach to all this, as opposed to the primarily psychological way of just trying to describe behaviors/symptoms and then just making up wild hypotheses based on clustering and distinctifying those, in some arbitrary hypothetical framework, that is then almost always shown to be significantly flawed or within the next 20ish years.

In fact, I would hazard to guess that you’re an autistic woman, based on your dispreference for thinking of people fundamentally as mechanisms with feelings.

(Well that and ‘SaraTonin’)

This is a fairly well established beavior/mental difference between autistic men and women.

In fact, if you lived in the US, and are a woman, chances are you’d never have even been diagnosed as autistic, unless you came from a quite wealthy family.

You’d have just been ‘gifted’, erudite, bookish, something like that.

Our healthcare systems and cultures are very much not on par, we suck ass at even realizing autistic women can exist.

I’m not even formally diagnosed myself.

I got referred to a formal adult autist diagnoser years ago, after literal decades of teams of therapists giving me all kinds of random diagnoses.

But, then, my family decided that I was hallucinating my referral to an adult autism specialist, despite me showing them the paperwork.

Long story short, I then became homeless, barely survived that. Last time I talked to a doctor, a GP, general doctor, far, far away from the adult autism specialist with a literal multi year waitlist…

… They said that realistically, pursuing a formal diagnosis would just be a waste of time and effort on my part, given the state of the US healthcare system.

So yeah, there are some ‘cultural’ differences at play here.

I didn’t know human tetrachromats actually existed.

That is very intriguing!

I’d only heard of certain people, very rarely, essentially developing a kind of shifted or altered perception of color after some kind of eye or brain or neurological injury or surgery.

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- SaraTonin@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
  
  The wheelchair folks are still disabled, they need the help of physically capable beings or things to exist in and maintain society
  
  …what? You think it’s literally impossible for wheelchair users to function to the point that a society created by and for wheelchair users would collapse without non-wheelchair users to look after them?
  
  As for the rest of it, while I certainly believe that self-diagnosis is valid (and, indeed, there is a phrase “all diagnosis is self-diagnosis”), it’s also the case that even people with diagnoses often suffer from imposter syndrome. So what I will say is that if you keep encountering people who find your views on disability and terminology to be wrong-headed, as it seems you do, then it may be to your benefit to approach such conversations with a little more openness and a little more listening to what the rest of us have to say
  
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  - sp3ctr4l@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
    
    You think it’s literally impossible for wheelchair users to function to the point that a society created by and for wheelchair users would collapse without non-wheelchair users to look after them?
    
    100% yes.
    
    Buildings will need to be built, repaired, maintained.
    
    Tons and tons of agriculture is still massively reliant on human beings doing things we still can’t figure out how to make robots do.
    
    A wheelchair bound society would 100% need people to build the ramps and pathways for them.
    
    As to the rest:
    
    Oh, I don’t regularly run into who find my views on the terminology of the term disability to be wrong-headed.
    
    You’re basically the only one.
    
    I am doing my best to listen and tell you what I think of what you are saying, but apparently that is offensive to you.
    
    Okey dokey!
    
    Seems like you want to talk about this anymore, so, I will take my leave of this convo henceforth.
    
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