Do you think Kid Starver will get permission from his boss Santanyahoo?
Comment on Circumcision classed as possible child abuse in draft CPS document
GarboDog@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
It should be illegal, thank goodness it’s finally being considered
Bloomcole@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
It shouldn’t be any more illegal than any harmless cosmetic procedure.
The last thing you want is unsupervised and unsanitary procedures done by a religious zealot.
Outlawing circumcision sends you down the same road as outlawing ear piercings or abortions. You’re guaranteed to do more harm than good.
EldritchFeminity@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 weeks ago
It is not a “harmless cosmetic procedure.” It’s more akin to ritual scarification or removing something like a lip, eyelid, or nose. It destroys nerve endings, causing a permanent loss of sensitivity, and the head of the penis is a mucus membrane that the foreskin is meant to keep moist and protect from damage. Most people had it done before they were old enough to be aware of the difference, but those who had it done later in life often report things like a reduction in the ability to feel sexual pleasure.
Medically necessary circumcision or somebody choosing to have it done is one thing, forcing an amputation onto a baby is entirely different. It’s like forcing a trans person to go through the wrong puberty: unwanted and permanent physical changes that can take years of therapy and medical procedures to heal from.
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
That’s absurd and you should know better. Tell someone who had their nose removed that “it’s just like circumcision” and see how they respond.
Rekorse@sh.itjust.works 3 weeks ago
If we started doing it at birth and told them it was normal, then yeah its the same.
EldritchFeminity@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 weeks ago
They’d probably respond similarly to telling somebody who was circumcised without consent and doesn’t like it that it’s just a harmless cosmetic surgery. Or telling a trans person forced to experience the wrong puberty that it isn’t a big deal/we can’t allow trans kids to go on puberty blockers because they might regret it (despite the fact that all the effects of puberty blockers are reversed by…stopping taking them).
Source: am trans, was forced through the wrong puberty, and was circumcised without consent as a baby and hate it. Did you know that there are people out there so traumatized by being circumcised as a baby that they willingly use clamps and rubber bands to slowly stretch out the skin on their dick until it looks like a foreskin again? The info on how to do it is easily accessible online and the tools are easily purchased. I know this because I discovered it and considered it not long before I discovered words like “transgender” and “gender dysphoria” and found out that there were words for feelings that I did not have the language to understand before.
I used those specific body parts as examples for a few reasons. Namely, they’re all designed to protect mucus membranes and keep them moist, like the foreskin. Removing them would also be permanent and result in negative effects - like how circumcision causes nerve damage and desensitization. There really isn’t a great comparison, and those who had it done as a kid don’t know what they’re missing. We do have plenty of reports from people who had it done later in life, though, and there’s plenty of data on the loss of sensitivity and struggle with sexual pleasure and satisfaction post-circumcision.
I guess the closest thing would be if people were ritualistically shooting lasers into their babies’ eyes to damage the lenses so that they needed glasses or something. Some people just like the way that glasses look. I knew a guy who didn’t need glasses and wore a pair without any lenses in them just because he liked the way that they looked. But given the choice between glasses and 20/20 vision, I’d personally take the 20/20 vision, thanks.
mean_bean279@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
There’s more reasons to have it done. It’s ultimately something that parents should only consider if they have a history of urinary tract issues since often times foreskin can cause issues like UTIs to be more frequent.
Also, as a male with a circumcised dick I haven’t needed therapy for it. So comparing it to a trans person is kind of rude to the trans community. It’s also straight up not a big deal. My parents made decisions they felt were right at the time. Life goes on. I’m doing the same with my child and the hope is that I make more good decisions than bad.
EldritchFeminity@lemmy.blahaj.zone 3 weeks ago
I’m trans and I brought it up for a couple of reasons: first, Weevil brought up gender affirming surgeries in regards to trans people as part of some slippery slope argument. Secondly, trans medical issues tie very well into my exceptions that I mentioned in the second part of my comment - medical necessity and consent.
You may not have any issues with being circumcised, but there are plenty of men out there who do. To the point that there’s a “foreskin restoration” process that involves using clamps and rubber bands to yank on the skin of your penis until it stretches into some resemblance of a foreskin. It doesn’t reverse any of the consequences of circumcision, but some men at least feel less dysphoric after doing it. I myself thought that my dysphoria was related to being circumcised before I learned words like “transgender” and “gender dysphoria.” Still not a fan of what was done to me, though. Enough to weigh in on conversations around the subject in the way that I have.
Generally, I think it’s a situation of “people don’t miss what they never knew they had.” There’s plenty of data from men who were circumcised later in life reporting a loss of sensitivity and difficulty with sexual pleasure and satisfaction post procedure compared to before. And this is why I compare it to being forced through an unwanted puberty. Permanent physical changes that you do not consent to. A baby cannot consent to having their genitals permanently altered. And a trans kid unable to access puberty blockers is as capable of preventing an unwanted puberty as a baby is capable of fighting a doctor/Rabbi/priest/etc.
Now for the exceptions: consent I’ve kinda already talked about, but if you understand the consequences and want to do it, I don’t see why you shouldn’t be able to anymore than somebody who wants to get a Prince Albert or a Jacob’s Ladder. And the big one, medical necessity. There are a number of reasons that it would be medically necessary, and they’re all valid regardless of the age at which they appear. Phimosis is a real thing that can hit at pretty much any age up to post puberty. I once worked with a poor kid who had to get it done for that reason at the age of 18. Although, based on a comment I saw elsewhere in this thread about the number of babies who die from UTIs related to circumcision, there may be some room to talk about what strictly is and isn’t “medically necessary.”
Basically, if your doctor says that you need to for health reasons or it’s your own informed choice, go right ahead. But if you’re forcing it on a baby due to peer pressure from the dead or because of some sense of “my dad hit me and I turned out fine,” then that isn’t right and should not be considered kosher.
Rekorse@sh.itjust.works 3 weeks ago
You seem incapable of thinking of anyone besides yourself.
Bloomcole@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
BS
Potatar@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
The topic is child (cannot consent, hell in some cases cannot talk yet because too young) circumcision, you are talking about puberty+(can semi-consent: can decide who to live with in family seperation for example) issues?
I agree about the black market but perfect is the enemy of good?
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Again, people get their baby’s ears pierced all the time. And that’s just the tip of the iceberg on parent approved medical procedures. If circumcision upsets you, how do you feel about ear tubes, tonsillectomies, and cleft pallet repair?
I would say the cost of criminalization far outweighs the benefit.
drunkpostdisaster@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
People should not be piercing their baby’s wars too. Neat that you used the same argument Republicans use use against gay marriage. We don’t see your kind here to often.
michaelmrose@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
The cost of criminalizing it is virtually nobody does it because they don’t want to lose their license or go to jail this seems pretty cheap
mean_bean279@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
There’s lots of things that parents do to their kids without their consent. I’d argue it’s worse to share their face on social media than to circumcise due to the true dangers of predators usage of technology. That doesn’t mean I think parents should be considered abusive if they do. That said, this is in the UK so I don’t have a horse in that race.
michaelmrose@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
This is your fantasy. Sharing their face on social media is less dangerous than biking to a friend’s house
Rekorse@sh.itjust.works 3 weeks ago
If the parents were made aware that its abusive and do it anyways then yes its abuse. Some people will question things naturally and thats fine, others will need information brought to them directly and thats also fine.
We should expect parents to put effort into making the best decisions they can with the information they have available.
Wilco@lemmy.zip 3 weeks ago
It should not be legal. It is a cosmetic surgery forced upon children.
UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Cosmetic surgery should not be banned on children. What is up with the UK and wanting to criminalize everything?
0x0@lemmy.zip 3 weeks ago
Did you listen to yourself?
Bloomcole@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
BS argument.
And the woman should have their vagina mutilated too for the same then right?
Let’s clear the roads between 8-10 PM so we can have some car racing and donuts.
And take your now legal guns and drugs too, we can have a fun evening of supervised shooting and meth!
michaelmrose@lemmy.world 3 weeks ago
Can you legally get any other cosmetic surgery on a less than 1 yr old?