Comment on She strongly disagrees

Soleos@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

• BlameTheAntifa@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

  There is actually a lot of historical context missing and — like most things Biblical — this has been terribly mistranslated and deeply abused and twisted by patriarchal leaders to suit their own political ambitions.

  Ephesus was home to the cult of Artemis/Diana, and the Temple of Artemis which was one of the Seven Wonders of the ancient world. The cult was matriarchal, Artemis being the goddess of girls and fertility, natural forces and archery, among other things. Her priestesses spoke with the authority and voice of their goddess, who was strong, fierce, and independent and the culture developed around this for hundreds of years.

  The entire letter is to a specific group of people regarding specific cultural conflicts. What the letter is saying is that women who are converting must not be allowed use their sex as an excuse to suppress or dominate male teachers. Instead, they need to learn this new religion respectfully from the existing teachers, who are men, rather than taking over by force. Flaunting wealth and social status is also frowned upon. And while the sexist “women made the mistake” line is there and is intentional, the call back to being “saved by childbearing” is meant to extend a familiar bridge for Artemis cultists. If it’s not immediately obvious why, then do you remember what Artemis was goddess of?

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  • Soleos@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

    That’s a historical text interpretation of the Bible, which is legit to me. However I’d say only a minority of practicing Christians regard it that way. With the rest, you have more fundamentalist views of the Bible as the literal word of God and the flexible view of it as teachings inspired by God. Therefore these views treat the Bible specifically as authoritative, timeless, and divine, elevating it above a mere human document and transcendent of historical context. Timothy 3:17 seems to reflect the common idea that “the Bible is the only book you need”.

    I do agree that one can make a historical argument for an interpretation of scripture, and maybe even do so in a way that reifies one’s personal relationship with God. However it doesn’t engage with the Bible the way most Christians do and therefore is not likely to be all that persuasive.

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    • BlameTheAntifa@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

      I completely agree.

      Religion - and all dogmatism - exists solely as a tool for the powerful to subjugate and oppress others. This has been the case for all of recorded human history. Christianity is no exception.

      I won’t take a fantastical mythological approach to any ancient document, even if that’s what modern acolytes are doing. I won’t pretend to care about their fan fiction, but I will casually correct factual mistakes and move on. Why? Because it’s therapeutic. I was raised in an abusive evangelical home, and besides that abuse, because my existence was “sinful”, the insistence on reading “The Bible” and learning that it doesn’t actually say any of the things I was told it did was formative. The people who demanded I read it clearly hadn’t themselves, and never dug deeper than the english words — which they insisted were “God-inspired”.

      You are right that nothing can change a cultists mind. They are in a cult of millions and millions. Their own holy book disagrees with all their dogmas, their speech, their actions, their teachings, but pointing it out will never change their minds. I’ll do it, anyway, because I need to. Liars should be exposed, even the liars themselves won’t recant.

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  • ICastFist@programming.dev ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

    It’s a real shame that pretty much no place bothers with putting historical context to the bible when teaching about it. Would’ve been great if christian churches did that

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  • bremen15@feddit.org ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

    excellent, someone who knows :-)

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  • Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

    this has been terribly mistranslated

    Ther original is in Greek. There is no mistranslation.

    Paul says, “I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[b] she must be quiet.” If it was about heretics, it would have said so. If it was about Timothy’s church only, he would have said so.

    Paul said “I” don’t permit it. He didn’t say “You” shouldn’t permit it. That means the Christian church, even without the cult of Artemis, should not permit women to teach or have authority over men.

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    • BlameTheAntifa@lemmy.world ⁨18⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      This is the original Koine per the NA28 for 1 Timothy.

      Βούλομαι οὖν προσεύχεσθαι τοὺς ἄνδρας ἐν παντὶ τόπῳ, ἐπαίροντας ὁσίους χεῖρας χωρὶς ὀργῆς καὶ διαλογισμοῦ. ὡσαύτως καὶ γυναῖκας ἐν καταστολῇ κοσμίῳ μετὰ αἰδοῦς καὶ σωφροσύνης κοσμεῖν ἑαυτάς, μὴ ἐν πλέγμασιν καὶ χρυσίῳ ἢ μαργαρίταις ἢ ἱματισμῷ πολυτελεῖ, ἀλλ’ ὃ πρέπει γυναιξὶν ἐπαγγελλομέναις θεοσέβειαν, δι’ ἔργων ἀγαθῶν. γυνὴ ἐν ἡσυχίᾳ μανθανέτω ἐν πάσῃ ὑποταγῇ· διδάσκειν δὲ γυναικὶ οὐκ ἐπιτρέπω, οὐδὲ αὐθεντεῖν ἀνδρός, ἀλλ’ εἶναι ἐν ἡσυχίᾳ.

      Paul wrote to the various movements about their unique challenges and how they should approach them. The Koine is dripping with meaning that is not easily translated to English.

      This is how most English speakers - who have no knowledge or experience with the cultures being written about or the Koine language they were written in - read their rubbish translations. This is also clearly you.

      Men need to be praying all the time, and when they pray they need to raise their hands up and do it without fuss. I want the women to cover themselves up, not wearing jewelry or caring for themselves, but serving on others, which is what God wants. Women need to shut up and do what they’re told. I will not tolerate a woman being a teacher or having any authority over a man, she must shut the hell up, because God created Adam first. Eve came second.

      But language is funny, because it’s meant to convey meaning through ideas, not approximations of words with zero thought to origin or target context. Because I can read Koine and history is one of my ‘tisms, this is what it actually SAYS.

      Whenever the men lift up their hands to address God, I want their hands to be clean, not soiled with resentment or quarrel. In the same way, women need to present themselves reasonably - with dignity and self-discipline. Not with extravagant hairstyles, golden jewelry, expensive pearls, or decadent clothes, but in alignment with the values of a woman who claims to serve God: by setting a good example in how they live and behave. Let them learn, but they must be calm and composed students. I will not give my permission for a woman to seize control of teaching from a man. They must conduct themselves peacefully.

      This builds directly on a couple paragraphs earlier, which laments the destabilizing influence of Ephesus’ pagan culture on the Christian movement there. Men were bitter and women were powerful and ambitious, and people who had no idea what they were talking about were trying to seize positions of authority in this new Christian sect.

      τὸ δὲ τέλος τῆς παραγγελίας ἐστὶν ἀγάπη ἐκ καθαρᾶς καρδίας καὶ συνειδήσεως ἀγαθῆς καὶ πίστεως ἀνυποκρίτου, ὧν τινες ἀστοχήσαντες ἐξετράπησαν εἰς ματαιολογίαν, θέλοντες εἶναι νομοδιδάσκαλοι, μὴ νοοῦντες μήτε ἃ λέγουσιν μήτε περὶ τίνων διαβεβαιοῦνται.

      What does that say? Well, resist the urge to assume that all self-important blowhards are always men and remember what I said about Ephesus being the seat of the matriarchal Artemis cult.

      The purpose of our mission is love - love from a pure heart, a sense of integrity, and genuine commitment. But some of you have lost sight of this mission and wandered off to blow self-important wind. They have ambitions to be esteemed teachers, but despite their projected confidence they have no idea what they are talking about.

      Interesting. That sounds familiar, doesn’t it?

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      • Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world ⁨15⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

        Whenever the men lift up their hands to address God, I want their hands to be clean, not soiled with resentment or quarrel. In the same way, women need to present themselves reasonably - with dignity and self-discipline. Not with extravagant hairstyles, golden jewelry, expensive pearls, or decadent clothes, but in alignment with the values of a woman who claims to serve God: by setting a good example in how they live and behave. Let them learn, but they must be calm and composed students. I will not give my permission for a woman to seize control of teaching from a man. They must conduct themselves peacefully. Remember the story of Adam and Eve. Adam, who came first, was not deceived, but Eve, who came later, was tricked into doing wrong.

        You believe this is the correct translation yet it doesn’t change the problem at all.

        “women need to present themselves reasonably - with dignity and self-discipline. Not with extravagant hairstyles, golden jewelry, expensive pearls, or decadent clothes, but in alignment with the values of a woman who claims to serve God:”

        Where is the admonishment that men should do the same?

        remember what I said about Ephesus being the seat of the matriarchal Artemis cult.

        " I will not give my permission for a woman to seize control of teaching from a man.

        Even if the problem is that he is talking about the Cult of Artemis, it cannot be an admonishment that ONLY WOMEN do not have permission. There is no mention that men or women shouldn’t follow pagan religions. It is only an admonishment against women. As such there is no textual support that this was anti pagan rhetoric.

        Again Paul says that he doesn’t support women to seize control of teaching. It therefore cannot be about the cult of Artemis.

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