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Comment on Why do conservatives define being fascist solely as "being violent?"

masquenox@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

Firstly - there is no workable “definition” of fascism that’s remotely useful. Not yet, anyway. It probably has something to do with the fact that fascism isn’t so much an ideology but more a function within the modern liberal nation state - ie, the people who perform the violent repression for the benefit of the rich elites at the top. Sometimes, the elites become so frightened that they will literally hand the very state over to these people in it’s entirety - as happened in Germany and Italy (and other places).

Secondly - these people calling themselves “conservatives” and/or “libertarians” don’t actually care much about labels. The fact that they actually call themselves “conservatives” (essentially a dead ideology they wouldn’t recognise if it bit them on their behinds) and “libertarians” (a term that originally described anarchist and other libertarian socialists) without having the foggiest clue what those terms really mean is a clue. The only thing they understand is that it’s a term they can throw at any people pushing back against their vile (and often fascist or fascist-adjacent) narratives.

That’s pretty much it.

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BlameTheAntifa@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

there is no workable “definition” of fascism that’s remotely useful.

Untrue. It has been described and defined in great detail.

theanarchistlibrary.org/…/umberto-eco-ur-fascism

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- masquenox@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Umberto Eco never managed to “define” fascism, Clyde.
  
  He only provided a list of characteristics of (what he termed) “ur-fascism” - what I’d call “secondary fascism” (ie, the violent re-enforcement of the status quo in the imperial core using methods and justifications pioneered in the colonised world).
  
  Here is what he said himself -
  
  “These features cannot be organized into a system; many of them contradict each other, and are also typical of other kinds of despotism or fanaticism.”
  
  Ie… no workable definition of fascism.
  
  Okay?
  
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  - BlameTheAntifa@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    I find it interesting that you touched on the contradictory compartmentalization trait of authoritarians without actually grasping the meaning of what you were trying to quote.
    
    Your own arguments are full of such contradictory compartmentalism, which is quite telling.
    
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    masquenox@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Which part of…
    
    Ie… no workable definition of fascism.
    
    …didn’t you get the first time around, Clyde?
    
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Doomsider@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
There has been a shinning example of Fascism in the US since it’s creation. From genociding the Native Americans to over throwing countless democracies and installing fascist states.

Sure the founding fathers existed before fascism was envisioned, but they did real good checking off every box. We will call them the proto-fascists, they helped guide the creation of the most destructive fascist nation ever. The kind of nation that nurtured the Nazi movement after creating the the perfect storm by walking away from the aftermath of WWI.

The kind of nation that purged all its left wing back during the McCarthyism Era. A nation whose military complex is bigger and stronger than the rest of the world combined. A country created by the wealthy for the wealthy embracing the corruption of greed from the start to the end.

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- masquenox@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  
  There has been a shinning example of Fascism in the US since it’s creation.
  
  Yes. Mussolini didn’t invent it… he just gave it a convenient name for us to use. What we call “fascism” today was birthed by colonialist brutality long before it’s vicious logic was applied to the populations of the newly-minted imperial core.
  
  This is why all the (so-called) “definitions” of fascism offered by liberals is so risible - they conveniently forget about fascism’s intimate links with imperialism (and therefore liberalism - the preferred ideology of colonisers) and merely try to write it off as some “aberration” of otherwise “perfect” western civilisation.
  
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  - Doomsider@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Well said.
    
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Daft_ish@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Excuse me. If they a re not conservative what are they?

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- prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  They’re conservatives. Regardless of what the word may have used to mean, it means this now. No matter how much people want that to not be true.
  
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  - dickalan@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    A turd by any other name is still a turd, now it’s MAGA Who like to steal and use that term and apply it to themselves, even though it does not relate to how they ever were in the past
    
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  - Daft_ish@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    This whole argument is just cover for “conservatives”. Conservatives foamented this party, they adhere to it, its their dogma in full view. They dont get to slip out now and pretend there is ‘no true scotsman.’
    
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- masquenox@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  
  If they a re not conservative what are they?
  
  What they are in reality is an extremist, fundamentalist and far-right strain of liberal. Liberalism has always really just been the fig-leaf ideology behind which capitalism hides… but these people calling themselves “conservatives” are really just capitalists that don’t see the need to bother with a fig-leaf at all. Simply consider the behaviour of people like Trump, Musk and all the other billionaires that barely hide their contempt for the working class. They are not true fascists, but I don’t see a problem with people calling them that - they certainly would like to be true fascists but lack the connection to the working class to actually do that like Hitler or Mussolini did. They are just extremely spoilt rich people living in bubbles of privilege… unlike the fascists of old.
  
  Conservatism itself is essentially a dead ideology - the conservatives of Abraham Lincoln’s time would sound like radical leftists in comparison to the people using that label today.
  
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  - Daft_ish@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Sorry, no
    
    Image
    
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    masquenox@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Lol!
    
    Did you actually read what you posted, genius?
    
    Here. I’ll make this a bit less confusing for you.
    
    “An economic theory in favour of laizzez-faire, the free market, and the gold standard.”
    
    Do tell… which of the two formal political factions in the US is most in favour of allowing billionaire parasites (ie, capitalists) to run everything and using the (so-called) “free market” a justification for that?
    
    The people (honestly) calling themselves “liberals” or the people (falsely) calling themselves “conservatives?”
    
    Read this part real careful like… political conservatism is a dead ideology.
    
    You don’t have to believe me - hear it from an actual conservative.
    
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  - prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Yeah and “Democrat” used to mean you liked slavery. The meaning of words (especially regarding political ideology) shift over time.
    
    These people are conservatives.
    
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    masquenox@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    
    These people are conservatives.
    
    No. They’re not.
    
    But if you really wish to continue flattering them, feel free to call them “conservatives” - it informs them that their pretense is still working.
    
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