Comment on Why is the manosphere on the rise? UN Women sounds the alarm over online misogyny

ProfThadBach@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

• LadyButterfly@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Men are often failed, that’s totally true. They’re also harmed by patriarchy eg being told to “man up” leading to them not seeing a doctor, work on themselves etc.

  Ive read up on this and I’m a DA outreach worker so I have experience. A common theme with the Manosphere is blame shifting, and refusing to take action on their issues. Their mindset is wrong, and they don’t help themselves.

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  • catty@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    leading to them not seeing a doctor,

    Interesting you should mention this because other than more suicides, this is the #1 reason why the average lifespan of men is less.

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    • LadyButterfly@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Yep exactly and men’s health matters

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  • starelfsc2@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Not false at all but a big part imo is also learned, it’s like if I have 10 problems, 5 of which are totally my fault, and the only one talking about the other 5 says “ALL your problems are not your fault.”

    It’s like one person actually fully reflected their experiences back to them, but then peddled a ton of lies along with it.

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  • KeenFlame@feddit.nu ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Yes and also that men are evil. Literally that they feel excluded and scared to participate because of their gender. They don’t dare talk to girls. Because of the other assholes that ruined it. They are told it’s what women like. It’s not true. But these are the ones being caught in the net. Not the asshole, but the timid ones.

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• SkunkWorkz@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  Problems is also that you can’t help people that don’t want to be helped. Since accepting help means for these young men that they have to accept that they themselves are partially to blame for their situation. Yes society has failed them but they have failed themselves as well. They have to own up to their own failures and not just put all the blame on the rest of the world.

  I know some young men that haven’t gone full mgtow manosphere yet. And even at that point it’s hard to help them. When you reach out they basically reject it. You can basically see in their eyes that they rather want to stay in the bubble and gaslight themselves than to accept the truth and get help. It’s much easier to blame everyone else than to take responsibility.

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• socsa@piefed.social ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  The problem with this is that it cedes all conversations about personal responsibility to the bad actors. I have a very similar story to you in terms of being an ideal candidate for manoshpere recruitment but understanding that it is bullshit. So why didn't we fall into the trap? All these men have the same access to information. Many of them are actually quite privileged as well. What other area of society to we see an adult throwing a childlike tantrum and immediately turn to "well obviously society has failed them." Do we say that about "Karens" making a scene? Do we say that about athletes who get DUIs?

  Honestly I don't feel like society has failed me at all. I think that's a very fragile cop out for very fragile assholes. To me it evokes the idea that men should be coddled as society reconciles the consequences of centuries of patriarchal injury.

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  • graff@lemm.ee ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    It’s called emotional intelligence. It helps you not fly off the handle when minor bad things happen. Having the same reaction to a franchise movie being bad as someone totalling your car is not good, yet it’s all too common

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    • catty@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      To be fair, ghostbusters 3 was really bad.

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      • Sonor@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        Or the new star wars “movies”

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• blarghly@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  You are making an excellent point right up until your last paragraph. What 15 year old boy wants to be Mr Fucking Rogers? Sure, maybe they want to be him in like 40 years (but only the version of him who was secretly a marine sniper covered in tattoos everywhere his sweaters hid). What does a 15 year old boy who is vulnerable to the manosphere want? He wants to get paid and get laid.

  Trying to shove a 15 year old’s raging hormones and desire for rebellion and independence into a Mr Rogers box will only lead to… more rebellion. Give the kids role models who are good people, who also succeed at things they care about.

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  • Taleya@aussie.zone ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    You do realise that the behaviour you’re describing is largely programmed, yes?

    Apart from the urge to blow loads everywhere

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  • KeenFlame@feddit.nu ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    I don’t understand how you think they would not want to be Mr Rodgers? It’s not in their biology. They look for role models and only grifters pretend to know how to get girls. It’s so idiotic. Mr Rodgers gets girls. If they only understood that truth they would flock to imitate him

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• TORFdot0@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  I can see that parents failed young men and the education system failed young men. But these men aren’t entitled to a woman or a high paying job. And quite frankly they probably aren’t capable of those things or they would be solving their own problems instead of blaming women for them

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  • SpaceShort@feddit.uk ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Manosphere men fall pray to the XY problem: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XY_problem?wprov=sfla1.

    They demand the X which is a girlfriend and money in order to solve problem Y which is a lack of social connectedness and decreasing standards of living.

    They believe themselves entitled to X because of that. Actually, everyone (including Manosphere men) is entitled to a solution to Y which affects everyone appart from the bourgois (who still lack social connectedness) but the solution to that is Z which is a wholesale restructuring of our society and economy to one that is maximally democratic and socialist.

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    • blarghly@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Was with you until that last bit. I’m not opposed to democratic reforms or testing socialist ideas piecemeal. But massive restructurings of society towards utopia have… a history…

      [Hint: lots of people die]

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      • newfie@lemmy.ml ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        Lots of people die in the United States as it is. Homelessness is rising drastically. How long until you’re next to be put out onto the street? Your employer can’t wait until they can automate your job and fire you.

        Also, the United States has a long history of carrying out genocide even prior to Gaza. Odd given your fallacious implication that capitalism is peaceful

        …wikipedia.org/…/Indonesian_mass_killings_of_1965…

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      • SpaceShort@feddit.uk ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        Not necessarily. Lots of people haven’t died in Rojava or in the areas of Southern Mexico controlled by the Zapatistas. Authoritarianism was the problem with restructurings you allude to, not socialism.

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• catty@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  That’s what a lot of this comes down to. Loneliness. Disconnection. No sense of value or direction. And then someone online tells you it’s not your fault, it’s women’s fault, or society’s fault, or anyone but you. That stuff spreads fast because it gives people something to belong to.

  Yep, and this is how marginalised communities are formed. Same with the text below.

  That’s what a lot of this comes down to. Loneliness. Disconnection. No sense of value or direction. And then someone online tells you it’s not your fault, it’s women’s men’s fault, or society’s fault, or anyone but you. That stuff spreads fast because it gives people something to belong to.

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• sugarfoot00@lemmy.ca ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

  You don’t fix this by lecturing young men. You fix it by giving them a sense of purpose and identity that doesn’t rely on putting someone else down.

  Sounds like they need the shit slapped out of them.

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  • Chinaroos@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    If a dam is leaking, smacking it and tell it to be more ‘dam-like’ will only break the dam eventually. For the people drowning, “the dam should have held, because that’s what dams do”

    For people who want to improve our world, the goal needs to be defined as reducing gender conflict by increasing mutual gender respect. These words you’ve shared do not invite respect, but conflict. It is a phrase of someone who does not offer support, but demands submission.

    Now it’s easy to reply “yes, I am demanding that men to stop killing women, and if that’s “submission”, so be it”. It’s of course a correct position.

    But it would not be what you said. And there are a thousand ways to twist that phrase to deepen the conflict, out of context, or even subverting that context. And the conflict then only depends.

    Resentment is a knife. It’s a tool of division, not unity. We should not use it to divide people by gender.

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  • SpaceShort@feddit.uk ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

    Succeed at capitalism? That’s a fool’s errand. Better to point them to the real enemy which is the bourgeoisie and the real solution which is for the working class to form democratic organizations aimed at overthrowing the ruling class and form worker led democratic ways of organizing society.

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    • blarghly@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

      Succeed at capitalism? That’s a fool’s errand

      I did it. Lots of people I know did it. The main trick is cutting toxic people out of your life, moving to a better place, and making new friends who are also dedicated to succeeding.

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      • SpaceShort@feddit.uk ⁨3⁩ ⁨weeks⁩ ago

        Tell that to a child slave in a cobalt mine.

        Being “dedicated to succeeding” is a one-way ticket to burnout.

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