We didn’t defeat the Nazis the first time with amnesty, conversation, and kindness.
We defeated them by stabbing them, shooting them, and fire bombing their cities.
We will have to do it again.
Comment on Common Ground
Godort@lemm.ee 4 days agoYou ever wonder how the right seems to move in lockstep while the left constantly debates between themselves about the details?
It’s shit like this that fosters that attitude. If some people on the right can look at something like this and then really examine their positions then thats a win.
The goal with something like this isn’t to get someone to 180 on their beliefs, they know that the government is untrustworthy. It’s to have them really look at what they’re supporting, and if they truly want those changes, after learning what it might cost them.
Photuris@lemmy.ml 4 days ago
Spacehooks@reddthat.com 3 days ago
Violence isn’t the answer
History book: about that…
chemical_cutthroat@lemmy.world 4 days ago
I don’t want 180s. I don’t want wishy-washy. I don’t want fair weather friends. Why? Because they are untrustworthy. Oh, you flipped 180 and support trans rights now? How long until the next grifter comes along and scares you into thinking the drag community is stealing children? Oh, you’re good with minorities having rights? Are you gonna feel that way the next time some old white man comes along and tells you they are bringing drugs into the country?
I’m sure you’d love to say that you’ll stand by your convictions, but history has show that you won’t. Repeatedly you have changed your positions. Repeatedly you have flip-flopped. I don’t care about you, anymore. Truly. Believe whatever you want to believe, just please do it quietly.
Godort@lemm.ee 4 days ago
People are complicated and can carry multiple, nuanced beliefs. There are people out there that support LGBTQ+ rights, think that drag is fun, and believe that people of color get treated unfairly systemically without also wanting to take up arms in a violent revolution against the established systems in America because social progress is still happening, albeit slowly.
Every social media platform(Yes, even the independent ones) tends to remove all nuance and push every issue as binary, and sometimes worse than that, it will bundle issues together. There are people here that will argue in all seriousness that if you voted for the candidate that would’ve pushed forward progressive policies, that you also support the genocide in Gaza.
chemical_cutthroat@lemmy.world 4 days ago
That is a cop out. You either take a stance or you don’t. It is binary. If your choice of “fiscal conservatism” or whatever other blanket term you want to use also includes systemic racism, misogyny, and homophobia, it doesn’t matter to me if you “don’t believe in that”. You still voted for the person that does, and that makes you just as bad.
There is no “nuance”. Anyone that tells you that is only trying to get your vote. There are people who’s lives are on the line. Those are who we vote for. Trickle down rights don’t work any better than trickle down economics. We vote for women’s right to choose. We vote for freedom to recognize your own sexual identity. We vote for safe havens for those seeking shelter from the storm. We vote to help our fellow human, because if we don’t, then we have lost what it means to be human.
“Alone we can do so little; together we can do so much.” -Helen Keller.
When a conservative leader wants to separate humans into groups like cattle, they are the enemy. It doesn’t matter what your policy is, if it hurts my friends, it makes you the antithesis to my very being, and if you don’t feel the same way, you are on the wrong side of things. I didn’t vote for Trump because I can’t vote for Trump. I also can’t vote for any other conservative, because they are all culpable. They are all responsible. They are all accountable.
stickly@lemmy.world 3 days ago
Hmmm why is it binary?.. Let’s brainstorm that… Could it be that you’re reducing 77 million human lives to which of the two circles they filled out of a slip of paper?
Aside from Bernie and AOC, when is the last time anyone on the American left actually attempted to appeal directly to the lower working class? Why are there there ballots with votes for both AOC and Trump?
This is a bloc of groomed voters: undereducated, underpaid, and living in a homogeneous bubble where they don’t see the consequences of fascism. The right has targeted their rhetoric to a sharp point, keeping this base strong even though their policies are the source of the oppression.
I went to high school in a small Midwestern town. NAFTA gutted our towns largest employer, outsourcing thousands of jobs. In a school with hundreds of students, there was ONE (1) PoC.
Like it or not, people vote for whoever promises to improve their lives the most. One party campaigns on reforming systemic racism for that one student; the other drills the lie that they’re on foodstamps because the Democrats gave their jobs to foreigners.
When the status quo has failed them, why would they vote for a candidate like Kamala?
Cethin@lemmy.zip 3 days ago
For an example of how this isn’t useful, my dad (a long time ago) bought the rhetoric against gay marriage. The reasoning was that it was a thing done by the church, because that’s the lie he’d been told. It was a lie, but he supported a bad thing because he’d been given a “good” reason. Once it was explained the church had nothing to do with it and it was a state issue, he realized it was wrong.
I could have just called him a bigot and pushed him further down that path, as a sort of revenge. What good would that do though. It might have made me feel better for a moment, but that’s it. It wouldn’t have cause any real change.
Your feelings, at the end of the day, matter little. Outcomes matter. If we can push some propaganda to get people who traditional vote conservative to vote liberal, that’s worth it. We don’t have to refuse to out of some backwards morality because they believed something in the past. It’s cutting your nose off to spite your face. It only hurts you in the long term, even if it felt ideal in the moment.
We should focus on actually doing good and creating the best outcomes for trans people, the drag community, minorities, women, and everyone else. We shouldn’t care about how it makes us feel.
chemical_cutthroat@lemmy.world 3 days ago
You make the argument that this is all a new concept for people. That the issue of gay marriage or whatever is on the chopping block this week, is something that is a new topic. These topics have been at the forefront of conversation for decades now. And even if you somehow haven’t been subject to the talking heads on every media outlet for the last 50 years, there is a level of common sense that I think is necessary to even walk upright that tells you, “Hey, these people should be able to marry whoever they want, because it has zero effect on my life.”
Critical thinking is at an all time low. No one has been thinking for themselves in decades, it seems, and when there are consequences for their actions, they just think a half-assed apology is enough to get the job done, and they go one with their lives like nothing was ever wrong. I’m done with it. I’m done with the people that think that way. I don’t have a place for them in my world. I don’t want them near me, I don’t want them interacting with me, and I don’t want them to infect others with their disease.
Everyone has a right to live and a right to think what they want to think, but if you are wrong, then you are wrong, and if you continue to be wrong despite all of the evidence to the contrary, then you are a detriment to this species, and your role has to be minimized. I’m not going to advocate for taking away the rights of people I don’t agree with, but I’m also sure as hell not going to welcome them with open arms when they finally decide to come around. They can continue to live their lives, and they can do the right thing from here on out, but being an asshole that suddenly gets it right doesn’t get a pat on the back. It get’s a shrug as I continue on my way. I’ve already wasted enough time and effort on changing hearts and minds. If they haven’t got it by now, then I don’t care if they ever do.
There are others out there that need my help more than the hillbilly lifelong GOP voter. They can fend for themselves. I’m not going to waste a breath on them when I am too busy fixing all of the shit they’ve been breaking. If they want to do good, great, get a hammer and some nails and get to work. If they don’t, fine, just stop kicking out the supports we are trying to build to keep everyone else safe. Being a good person doesn’t get a participation trophy. It doesn’t even get weekends off. It’s the baseline. It’s the expectation. If they can’t meet it, kick rocks.
Cethin@lemmy.zip 3 days ago
The problem is they don’t have all evidence to the contrary, as you say. They’re told there’s a massive issue of trans people playing sports and making impossible for women to compete, and things like that. They’re given very impassioned reasons to believe that they’re believing the morally correct thing. They’re told it’s to protect people. You just refuse to accept that your “opponent” can have the same moral reasons for doing something as you do.
Yeah, sure. I’m not asking you to. I’m asking you to shut the fuck up while other people try to do good. You don’t need to tell them they aren’t allowed in joining us to fix things, or to work to get them on side. You just need to sit down and not say anything. You seem to have plenty of time to waste telling them they won’t be accepted, which can’t work to do good.
stickly@lemmy.world 3 days ago
Lmao which is it?
These people have a right to vote and live in the same society as you. What the fuck is your solution? Disenfranchisement? Balkanization? Ghettos?
It’s hilarious because you could swap out a few talking points and the hillbilly voter would say the exact same thing
stickly@lemmy.world 3 days ago
What a fucked up view of the world. Its not about them being your “friends”, it’s not about trusting them.
It’s about reaching out to your fellow man, educating as much as you can, focusing on their actual grievances (no matter how much propaganda they parrot) and convincing them that we can build a better future. Maybe that enthusiasm only lasts for one vote, maybe not. Winning support isn’t automatic, especially with the full weight of a propaganda machine purpose-built to crush critical thinking.
If you don’t want to even try to overcome the systemic suppression of progressive politics then why are you even here? Take your own advice and suffer in silence.