I thought turbos converted air (exhaust) kinetic energy into mechanical energy, not the heat itself. If exhaust was cold, the turbo would still work, no?
Not saying that these Peltier devices are going to be game changers, but it sounds like they do something different from turbos in that they are capturing additional wasted energy.
Zonetrooper@lemmy.world 1 week ago
Yes, and no. Heat and kinetic energy are fundamentally all just energy. What we call heat is, technically, the kinetic energy of molecules vibrating around.
When exhaust gas passes through a turbocharger, it is both slowed and reduced in pressure, resulting in it being slightly cooler than when it entered. This device is using a different method of getting energy out of the exhaust gas, but it’s fundamentally still the kinetic energy of those very energetic exhaust gas molecules bouncing against one side of the thermoelectric generator and giving up their energy into it. I would still expect the exhaust gas to come out of it slightly cooler and slower.
partial_accumen@lemmy.world 1 week ago
Your explanation about where the energy comes from with turbochargers sounds wrong to me.
You’re skipping a crucial step here. The exhaust gases get pushed through input of the exhaust gas impeller on the turbocharger by the movement of a piston in the engine during the exhaust cycle. This “work” isn’t free. Its energy that comes from the other pistons on their combustion cycle. If there is more resistance on the exhaust coming out of the engine (which there is to drive the turbocharger impeller), that energy must be added (robbed) by the energy at the crankshaft that ultimately powers the wheels.
The extra boost of power we experience in an engine from using a turbocharger is that the turbocharger allows more oxygen to be put into the combustion chambers (and the engine puts more fuel in at the same time). The extra energy is from burning - - more fuel in the same period of time than without turbocharging. The fuel is the source of the energy, the turbocharger isn’t recovering any energy.
The article is covering technology is actually recovering energy turning heat (thermal energy) back into electricity (electrical energy).
Rivalarrival@lemmy.today 1 week ago
The “pushing” (exhaust stroke) isn’t particularly relevant.
When the valves close at the beginning of the compression stroke, the pressure in the cylinder is atmospheric: zero psig. The valves don’t open until the piston has risen (compression) and fallen (power) again. Without combustion, the pressure at the time the exhaust valves open is again at atmospheric. The gasses were compressed, and re-expanded.
With combustion, the pressure at the bottom of the stroke is substantially higher than atmospheric: the combustion event has radically increased the pressure of those gasses. At the end of the power stroke, just before the exhaust valves open, the pressure inside the cylinder is still extremely high.
It is the expansion of those gasses - not the “pushing” of those gasses - that drives the turbo.
I think it might be beneficial to think about the next evolution in aircraft propulsion. The turbocharger operates by expanding gasses through a power turbine, and using that energy to drive a compressor turbine. Remove the cylinders and pistons from the path, carefully tune those turbines, and you have a turbojet.
If the pistons are “pushing” the turbocharger, the turbojet would be impossible. It is the expansion of the gasses, not the displacement of the pistons, that drives the turbocharger.
untorquer@lemmy.world 1 week ago
The exhaust gases are at a high pressure after combustion due to combustion heat. The turbo does indeed increase exhaust pressure, and therefore extracts some work from the crank but it’s extracting significantly more from the high pressure of the expanded hot gas. It’s not “free” because it’s energy that is usually just wasted in a naturally aspirated engine. There are many examples of engine configurations where a turbo is used to boost efficiency by reducing displacement.
There were systems on old aircraft engines which used exhaust power recovery turbines geared directly to the crank. Those wouldn’t physically function under your concept.
The increase in manifold pressure doesn’t just increase oxygen in the cylinder. It also increases the manifold pressure, or the total mass of gases. The increase of oxygen does allow for more fuel and total energy in the ignition event but the extra inert gas also expands when heated. So both play a factor in increasing mean effective pressure, and therefore energy output per cycle (power).
partial_accumen@lemmy.world 1 week ago
I’ll admit I’m at the edge of my knowledge here, but are you saying that if we were increasing the pressure in the cylinder from, say pure nitrogen (or another inert), instead of atmosphere (which contains oxygen), and we kept the same amount of fuel from natural aspiration, we’re still get the majority of the benefit of turbocharging even overcoming the parasitic portion of extra energy needed during the compression cycle and the exhaust cycle against the turbocharger impeller?
scarabic@lemmy.world 1 week ago
I’ve wondered about this. If this is so, and heat is molecules moving back and forth, how do the molecules stop, change direction, and then accelerate in the other direction, stop, change directions again, and go back, over and over and over?
Zonetrooper@lemmy.world 1 week ago
Yeah, I do apologize - I’m somewhat simplifying my explanation because when you start going into the full detail, it just brings up more questions.
So yes, like the other comment says, the particles are constantly bouncing into other things.
scarabic@lemmy.world 1 week ago
Nothing to apologize for - thank you for elaborating.
untorquer@lemmy.world 1 week ago
It’s pretty much like billiards. They just bounce. Different chemicals (types of molecule) are different phases at different temperatures e.g. nitrogen is a gas at room temp, water is liquid. Stuff that’s a gas at room temp just has less bonding forces (and often mass) than liquids or solids. So they don’t take as much heat to go fast. There’s a lot of heat even at room temp, and even at -40deg. The temperature for nitrogen to sit in one place is -210C or -346F.
CookieOfFortune@lemmy.world 1 week ago
Molecules interact with each other. Energy is transferred as they bump around. If you were to follow a single molecule it would move around randomly. What we can measure is usually the average of many molecules.
scarabic@lemmy.world 1 week ago
So it’s less of vibrating and more about smashing around into things?
This is easier to envision with a gas: like a chamber of balks all ricocheting like mad. It’s harder to envision for a solid. But I guess a molecule will be up smack against its neighbors, getting repelled, not so much bounding freely?
Telorand@reddthat.com 1 week ago
Gotcha, thanks. It doesn’t sound particularly revolutionary as far as energy capture goes, since 40W is probably negligible on today’s cars.
NGL though, on an old '75 Honda motorcycle I used to own, an extra 40W would have been amazing. The alternator was too tiny to keep the electronics running and battery charged, and I had to turn the headlight off whenever possible to keep the battery charging.