It’s OK for manufacturers to say using aftermarket parts voids the warranty, it’s not OK for them to prevent using them entirely. Likewise if there’s a safety concern that should be handled by regulation and things like safety inspections, not by forcing all repairs to go through the manufacturer. If whatever it is is that critical to the safe operation it should be publicly documented so that third parties can manufacture it correctly to the needed tolerances.
I’d temper that by saying a manufacturer would need to provide a reasonable option. Some things could become dangerous or even deadly if repaired incorrectly. Or it could be dangerous or deadly to even attempt to repair it.
orclev@lemmy.world 1 day ago
tabular@lemmy.world 17 hours ago
I’m not so sure it’s actually okay for manufactures to say using aftermarket parts voids the warranty - they need to prove it’s actually your fault the device is broken (America’s Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act). If you’ve seen those little stickers over screws that say “warranty void if removed” - those are actually illegal (in America).
meco03211@lemmy.world 1 day ago
if there’s a safety concern that should be handled by regulation
Regulation won’t detail what a company does to that level. They might say something like “fasteners shouldn’t come loose” but it wouldn’t have a torque spec.
If whatever it is is that critical to the safe operation it should be publicly documented so that third parties…
That would run face first into proprietary info and corporate classified info.
Rivalarrival@lemmy.today 1 day ago
Proprietary information and corporate classified information do not exist once they are incorporated into the device and sold to the end user. That information now belongs to the end user.
orclev@lemmy.world 1 day ago
That would run face first into proprietary info and corporate classified info.
Behold all the fucks I do not give. If it’s that critical they lose all claim to being propriety. It’s just like patent, there’s no such thing as a secret patent, so anything that safety critical doesn’t get to stay secret either.
Regulation won’t detail what a company does to that level. They might say something like “fasteners shouldn’t come loose” but it wouldn’t have a torque spec.
It doesn’t now but it’s utterly trivial to fix that. Just make the regulations say that components must meet the manufacturer specifications and require manufacturers to publish and maintain all the specifications of all safety critical components. If they want to keep it secret then that means it’s not safety critical and they’re responsible for any accidents resulting from its failure.
otter@lemmy.ca 1 day ago
That would run face first into proprietary info and corporate classified info.
The other side of regulation should be around purchasing. Bad repairability, delays in repairs, and proprietary parts need to be more important factors when deciding on what device to buy. Either at the government level for public institutions, or at least at the corporate level for private
Rivalarrival@lemmy.today 1 day ago
Yes, dangers exist from third party repairs.
Refusal or even simple failure to provide critical repair data to the end user or their agent denies the end user the ability to make an informed decision about repairs.
The company should be liable for all damages from a botched 3rd-party repair unless they provide to the end user complete specifications and unrestricted access to the device in order to make informed decisions about repairs.
tabular@lemmy.world 1 day ago
In the medical field when a device can only be repaired by the manufacturer then you can expect long wait times, bad repair jobs and having your own equipment destroyed for “safety”.
We let people repair their own car’s brake pads… we shouldn’t give up ownership rights for a unwarranted claim to safety. If something is potentially dangerous then making it more difficult to repair is a bad idea.
atrielienz@lemmy.world 1 day ago
We probably shouldn’t let people repair their own brake pads but that’s another argument. Not enough people die from randoms repairing their own brake pads. Repair an insulin pump the wrong way and it will absolutely kill you. Oxygen masks, CPAP machines, pace makers. So many medical devices that people rely on for life or death care.
I’m all for right to repair. But having seen some of the thing people have done to repair safety items I have serious doubts about the efficacy of someone repairing something wrong and killing their grandma. I can appreciate that not everyone feels the same way. I can appreciate that there are absolutely people out there who can and do repair their own devices, cars, machinery etc, and they may do it well. But there are always going to be people out there who don’t know what they’re doing but will try and then we’ll hear about them on the news because they touched a capacitor or something.
Rivalarrival@lemmy.today 1 day ago
What kind of auth-dystopian nonsense is that?
You’re just as dead if you can’t get that insulin pump repaired or replaced because the manufacturer won’t or can’t support it. When they go bankrupt because other customers have sued them into non-existence, you still own the device they manufactured, and you still need it repaired.
AnyOldName3@lemmy.world 23 hours ago
If you’ve got a broken insulin pump, assuming you’re in a country with a functioning healthcare system, you should have been given a spare pump with the original, and probably some insulin pens, so when one breaks, you fall back to the spare, and get given a new one to be the new spare (or could get the broken one repaired). Using the spare is completely safe.
If you don’t have a spare, your sugars would go up over several hours, but you’d have a day or two to get to a hospital and potentially several days after that for someone to find you and get you to a hospital, so it’s not safe, but also not something you’d die from if you had any awareness that there was a problem.
If you’ve got an incorrectly-repaired pump, you could have it fail to give you enough insulin, and end up with higher sugars, notice the higher sugars, and then switch to the spare. That’d be inconvenient, but not a big deal. However, you could also have it dump its entire cartridge into you at once, and have your sugars plummet faster than you can eat. If you don’t have someone nearby, you could be dead in a couple of hours, or much less if you were, for example, driving. That’s much more dangerous than having no insulin at all.
Prosthetic legs don’t have a failure mode that kills you, so a bad repair can’t make them worse than not having them at all, but insulin pumps do, so a bad repair could.
tabular@lemmy.world 1 day ago
The FDA found there isn’t evidence that 3rd party repair is is any less safe than 1st party repair.
If one part needs to be replaced and the company who owns the patients/copyright tells the manufacturer to not sell it to others then the patient cost is needlessly a whole new machine. How many lives would be saved by lowering cost of getting medical equipment working?
atrielienz@lemmy.world 1 day ago
I read the article. Third party repair not being your grandson who’s replacing the seal on your CPAP mask, because that’s not what I mean not does it mean going to a third party repair place.
It being less safe for the vast majority doesn’t mean that there aren’t going to be people who get it wrong. People repair their brakes wrong all the time. It’s absolutely caused accidents. But not enough to be statistically important in the grand scheme of 8 billion people. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen or that it can’t.
linearchaos@lemmy.world 1 day ago
The argument that because some people can’t, or won’t do a good job, no one should isn’t a very good one. Under that same logic you could exclude wiper blades.
You end up like New Jersey where you can’t pump your own gas. There are already guidelines and fixes for this wrapped around repairing your home power. You’re not allowed to architect major changes without the sign off of somebody who is a registered professional but you’re absolutely allowed to fix things that are already there.
For more people die from not fixing their brakes, because it’s difficult and expensive than ones who fix their brakes incorrectly.
atrielienz@lemmy.world 1 day ago
That depends entirely on who’s safety is on the line. When you repair your brakes wrong (to follow the original example), and it causes a pile up that kills 4.or 8 or 10 people, someone should be held liable for that.
When you repair the electrical box in your basement wrong and it causes a fire that takes out the houses on either side of you, someone should be held liable for that.
This is like saying “just because some people who drive drunk kill people doesn’t mean that everyone shouldn’t be able to”. The difference here though is that we know there’s a statistically significant increase in the likelihood of death or serious injury from driving drunk.
There’s a statistically less likely chance of death or bodily injury when people repair their own devices, but I would wager that has a lot to do with the fact that the pool of people doing it have the knowledge to do so and aren’t completely ignorant of how those devices work, or it takes into account that right to repair also encompasses people getting a third party who is qualified to repair the device to do it, but outside of what the manufacturer allows per user agreement. Once more random laymen start doing it because they are allowed or perceived themselves to be allowed, I would expect that the number of wrongly repaired devices would go up.
Some states have mandatory car inspections. So for instance, if you repair your brakes wrong and leave a caliper bolt off or don’t grease the slides or any number of other things there’s another qualified person looking over that and noting it. So there’s less possibility that it won’t be fixed properly. We do not have anything like that for medical devices except when they are repaired through the manufacturer.
I’m not even arguing against the right to repair. I’m just pointing out the hurdles that are going to be there and saying they should be addressed. I’m actually generally for people learning how things work so that they can do simple repairs or even complex repairs if they need to.
But I still think that some things should be handled by professionals. Or at least with a professional QC’ing the work.
In the field I work in, work can be done by the owner but only with a qualified and licensed A&P present. Would you suggest that any old person off the street should be able to repair a plane and fly over your house?
vrek@programming.dev 1 day ago
This depends on the area of medical device. I work in medical device but totally different from this, mine get implanted into your body.
I doubt many people have the knowledge to to truly troubleshoot our devices beyond what the doctor is allowed to do. We need a bunch of expensive and specialized hardware to troubleshoot.
We are legally required to investigate and report any complaints(www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/…/search.cfm) . If we don’t get the complaint we can’t investigate and report it.
If a certain number(honestly I don’t know the specific number) of complaints occur we are legally required to create a corrective action to help the patients immediately (or as soon as possible) and a preventive action to ensure it doesn’t effect other patients. If a person has an issue and “repaired” it themselves they don’t get counted in this and as such could cause more patients to suffer.
While I agree with right to repair I think certain things should be exempt. That said then there should be a requirement of the manufacturer to ivestigate/repair the equipment.
tabular@lemmy.world 1 day ago
When a defibrillator implant incorrectly shocks a pregnant women as an edge case she has to take meds to slow her heart so it doesn’t shock her. Doctors never think of the software running on it, and can’t get the code because it’s proprietary. People would be able to fix it, perhaps without even removing it, but can’t because business. www.youtube.com/watch?v=easb_6LCFDI
tabular@lemmy.world 1 day ago
2+3. I don’t think that’s a real concern. Presumably you’re already in contact with others to share information. Learn to share and learn from others in a more open community.