I would rather live in a "class system" than a "caste system"

Submitted ⁨⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago⁩ by ⁨LeviticusIsForPedophiles@lemmy.world⁩ to ⁨showerthoughts@lemmy.world⁩

Recently I was introduced to the Indian caste system. No thanks. That is a designation you cannot escape as you are born into such a label for life.

Sounds like slavery.

But you can elevate your class in the western world. Where class is measured largely by liquidity or wealth more generally.

I’ve lived in a society organized by class my entire life. And have come to learn there are many paths out of poverty (the so-called “lower class”) available to almost everyone.

Class systems are far from perfect. But if given a choice over being born into an upper caste family in India, or a lower class family in the western world, I’d go with Chicago over New Delhi any day.

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CameronDev@programming.dev ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

But you can elevate your class in the western world.

Lol.

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- NONE_dc@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago
  LMAO even
  
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- Paragone@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago
  Paul Fussell’s books on the North American class-system identifies that it is only possible to move 1-class-up per generation because children who grow-up among the next-class-up can be, work-in, live-in, & function-in, that 1-class-up culture.
  
  I think he was using the coarse-grained working/middle/upper granularity, not the finer-grained lower-working, middle-working, upper-working, etc, levels…
  
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  - CameronDev@programming.dev ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago
    Those books are half a century old.
    
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StonksDiff13@lemmy.today ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago
Life is too short to consider the lesser of two evils. Push for the ideal.

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NONE_dc@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

But you can elevate your class in the Western world.

After a little (big) laugh, let’s assume this is true:

In that case, the thing about the class system is that the upper classes can also elevate themselves. The rich become super rich, millionaires become billionaires, and the bourgeoisie become oligarchs.

All this at the expense of further precariousness for the lower classes. The modern middle class is the lower class of a few decades ago, and the modern lower class is practically in misery.

And today, those in the lower class are already working as quasi-slaves, not to move up the social ladder, but to avoid falling even further.

Every unequal system reaches the same conclusions sooner or later. The misery of the majority is Rome, and these systems are the roads that lead to it.

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FudgyMcTubbs@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago
I think even in Western systems, you’ll run into “new money”/ “old money” classifications that will pretty much stick with you for life, unless you’re a billionaire. People suck, and society is lobsters in a bucket.

Full disclosure, I’m closer to “no money” than either “new money” or “old money” so ymmv.

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radiouser@crazypeople.online ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago
Given the choice I’d rather get kicked only once in the nuts instead of twice; the ideal would be no nut kicks at all though.

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fizzle@quokk.au ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago

there are many paths out of poverty (the so-called “lower class") available to almost everyone.

This just isn’t true, unless you define “middle class” as “having enough money to retire before you die”.

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HubertManne@piefed.social ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago
yeah and I would rather suck a dick than get raped up the ass but guess what? I don’t want either.

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Augustiner@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago
Not saying caste system is better, both are terrible. We should strive to abolish both.

But to your point about class mobility: You can always move down in class, up is neigh impossible. Thinking that money will help you move up is only a carrot that the upper class dangles in front of the poor. Class is not only determined by wealth, it is determined by capital. Capital encompasses not only financial and economic capital, but also social capital, intellectual capital, cultural capital, etc. To move up in class you will have to acquire enough of all of these, just money isn’t enough. If you don’t have the same manners, vocabulary, friends, status symbols and don’t consume the the same media you will never be accepted and only be considered a nouveau rich and a gaudy buffoon. Your lifestyle will be better than that of the rest of your class, but the higher class will never accept you as one of their own. Your kids might be able to move up, if you put them in the right school so they can absorb some of that social capital and learn the language, squire the correct manners and make the right friends. But you will very likely be forever stuck in the same class that you were born in, unless you move down.

There is a Philosopher called Hanno Sauer who wrote a book about this. I don’t agree with all of it, but he has some very interesting observations.

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- Paragone@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago
  There are at-least 2 dimensions of class:
  
  1 is actual working, ie trades vs beaurocracy,
  
  & the other is identity-nation based validity within one’s class.
  
  The actual working classes are real: there’s no point in pretending that somebody who knows all sorts of beaurocratic rules as their career is competent on a construction-site the way a working tradesperson can be, & vice versa.
  
  The problem isn’t that.
  
  The problem is the exclusivity-presumption, the “us vs them” presumption, the identity/nation prejudice, instead-of-collaborating toward our common good, through our different capabilities.
  
  The identity-nation based validity is the crystallization of the problem/prejudice.
  
  I’m saying that as an underclass person: worthless human garbage, a person who’s racked-up 7+y as an outright homeless person, & don’t ever bother pretending that the middle-class & upper-middle-class could EVER consider an inferior to be “valid” in THEIR class’s validity: I’ve experienced that prejudice enough to know the condescension & contempt are indestructible.
  
  ( I was born into upper-middle-class, & life taught me just how prejudiced that class is. Karmically correcting. )
  
  Paul Fussell’s books on the North American class-system gave me some leverage/understanding years ago, & have been working on bettering that, ever since.
  
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  - Augustiner@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago
    If I understand what you’re saying correctly we are largely on the same page about this… class mobility upward is hard and almost impossible. Classes are usually discriminatory against other classes (sometimes even towards higher classes). This makes actual class mobility very hard. People have to mask as having always belonged to a certain class by acquiring the correct signifiers.
    
    What I am not sure I agree with, or maybe I just don’t understand it, is the point about dimensions of class. People are more than just the job they do. An aristocrat who is living off inheritance has about the same amount of actual working experience that a low class individual who can’t get a job has. They both don’t work, but since the aristocrat has a bunch of capital which the drunk doesn’t have they are on opposite ends of the spectrum.
    
    Idk why you were getting those downvotes. I’ll check out Fussel if I get the chance.
    
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Paragone@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago
TTBOMK, THE difference between a “class” system & a “caste” system, is only mobility vs hereditary.

The English class system is a caste system that isn’t labelled as such: you don’t have mobility in it.

Also ttbomk, the original caste-system WASN’T life-long: you were in different castes during different parts of your life.

The conservatives reoriented it to being fixed, centuries ago.

iirc, it was King Ashoka who put the original in place?

Frawley wrote on it, some years ago, iirc…

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TheWeirdestCunt@lemmy.today ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago
Go back 100-200 years and the western class system was exactly like the caste system.

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Una@europe.pub ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago
Hell vs super hell

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