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Comment on AI Music Generator Suno Admits It Was Trained on ‘Essentially All Music Files on the Internet’

There’s nothing stopping you from going to youtube, listening to a bunch of hit country songs there, and using that inspiration to write a “hit country song about getting your balls caught in a screen door”. That music was free to access, and your ability to create derivative works is fully protected by copyright law.

So if that’s what the AI is doing, then it would be fully legal if it was a person. The question courts are trying to figure out is if AI should be treated like people when it comes to “learning” and creating derivative works.

I think there are good arguments to both sides of that issue. The big advantage of ruling against AI having those rights is that it means that record labels and other rights holders can get compensation for their content being used. The main disadvantage is that high cost barriers to training material will kill off open-source and small company AI, guaranteeing that generative AI is fully controlled by tech giant companies like Google, Microsoft, and Adobe.

I think the best legal outcome is one that attempts to protect both: companies and individuals below a certain revenue threshold (or other scale metrics) can freely train on the open web, but are required to track what was used for training. As they grow, there will be different tiers where they’re required to start paying for the content their model was trained on. Obviously this solution needs a lot of work before being a viable option, but I think something similar to this is the best way to both have competition in the AI space and make sure people get compensated.

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moonlight@fedia.io ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
I think the solution is just that anything AI generated should be public domain.

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- LodeMike@lemmy.today ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  That’s the current status quo.
  
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- MrSoup@lemmy.zip ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  If you use a tool, let’s say photoshop, to make an image, should it be of public domain? Even if the user effort here is just the prompt, it’s still a tool used by an user.
  
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  - moonlight@fedia.io ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    If you roll a set of dice, do you own the number?
    
    I don't think it is a tool in the same sense that image editing software is.
    
    But if for example you use a LLM to write an outline for something and you heavily edit it, then that's transformative, and it's owned by you.
    
    The raw output isn't yours, even though the prompt and final edited version are.
    
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    Fubarberry@sopuli.xyz ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    If you snap a photo of something, you own the photo (at least in the US).
    
    There’s a solid argument that someone doing complex AI image generation has done way more to create the final product than someone snapping a quick pic with their phone.
    
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  - Petter1@lemm.ee ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Well, the AI doesn’t do all the work, you use public domain material (AI output) to create your own copyright protected product/art/thing etc.
    
    All you have to do is put some human work into the creation. I guess the value of the result still correlates with the amount of human work one puts into a project.
    
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Even_Adder@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
It should be fully legal because it’s still a person doing it. Like Cory Doctrow said in this article:

Break down the steps of training a model and it quickly becomes apparent why it’s technically wrong to call this a copyright infringement. First, the act of making transient copies of works – even billions of works – is unequivocally fair use. Unless you think search engines and the Internet Archive shouldn’t exist, then you should support scraping at scale: pluralistic.net/…/how-to-think-about-scraping/

Making quantitative observations about works is a longstanding, respected and important tool for criticism, analysis, archiving and new acts of creation. Measuring the steady contraction of the vocabulary in successive Agatha Christie novels turns out to offer a fascinating window into her dementia: theguardian.com/…/agatha-christie-alzheimers-rese…

The final step in training a model is publishing the conclusions of the quantitative analysis of the temporarily copied documents as software code. Code itself is a form of expressive speech – and that expressivity is key to the fight for privacy, because the fact that code is speech limits how governments can censor software: eff.org/…/remembering-case-established-code-speec…

That’s all these models are, someone’s analysis of the training data in relation to each other, not the data itself. I feel like this is where most people get tripped up. Understanding how these things work makes it all obvious.

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- Petter1@lemm.ee ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  I think AI should be allowed ti use any available data, but it has to be made freely available e.g. by making it downloadable on huggingface
  
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YeetPics@mander.xyz ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Inspiration ≠ mathematically derived similarity.

These aren’t artists giving their own rendering, these are venture capitalists using shiny tools to steal other people hard work.

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- redisdead@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  4 chords.
  
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Cagi@lemmy.ca ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Taking other people’s creative works to create your own for profit product is illegal in every way except when AI does it. AI is not a person watching videos. AI is a product using others’ content ass it’s bricks and mortar. Thousands of hours of work on a project you completed being used by someone else to turn sa profit, maybe even used in some way you vehemently disagree with, without giving you a dime is unethical and needs regulation from that perspective.

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- Fubarberry@sopuli.xyz ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  That’s covered by section 107 of the US copyright law, and is actually fine and protected as free use in most cases. As long as the work is a direct copy and instead changes the result to be something different.
  
  All parody type music is protected in this way, whether it’s new lyrics to a song, or even something less “creative” like performing the lyrics of song A to the melody and style of song B.
  
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- commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  
  Thousands of hours of work on a project you completed being used by someone else to turn a profit, maybe even used in some way you vehemently disagree with, without giving you a dime is
  
  exactly how human culture progresses, and trying to stop it
  
  is unethical and needs regulation from that perspective.
  
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- Gutless2615@ttrpg.network ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Taking other people’s creative works to create your own productive work is allowed if you are making a fair use. There’s a very good argument that use such as training a model on a work would be a fair use under the current test; being a transformative use, that replicates practically no actual part of the original piece in the finished work, that (arguably) does not serve as a replacement for that specific piece in the market.
  
  Fair use is the cornerstone of remix art, of fan art, of huge swathes of musical genres. What we are witnessing is the birth of a new technique based on remixing and unfortunately this time around people are convinced that fighting on the side of big copyright is somehow the good thing for artists.
  
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- commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  
  Taking other people’s creative works to create your own for-profit product is illegal in every way except when AI does it.
  
  wrong.
  
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  - Quill7513@slrpnk.net ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    You’re literally on a piracy server. You know about the laws and how hard the corpos crack down on us. Why the fuck are you licking the boots now
    
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    commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    you’re wrong on the facts, this has nothing to do with supporting corporations.
    
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    commie@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    because i’m principled, so i know that copying content is good and stopping people from copying is bad.
    
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Petter1@lemm.ee ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Yea, I think only big media corporations would profit from such a copyright rule Average Joe’s creations will be scraped because he has no funding to prove and sue those big AI corporations

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captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
I’m reminded of the Blue Man Group’s Complex Rock Tour. One of the major themes of the show is the contradiction in terms that is the “music industry.” That we tend to think of music as an artistic, ethereal thing that requires talent and inspiration…and yet we churn out pop music the same way we churn out cars and smart phones.

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ColeSloth@discuss.tchncs.de ⁨3⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Actually, that music was based off of getting royalties and ad viewership. No one will pay for an ai to be exposed to an ad or pay royalties for an ai to hear a song. Or have an ai to hear a song for the chance of the ai buying merchandise or a concert ticket.

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