Comment on Mona: Australia women's-only museum files appeal to keep men out
LwL@lemmy.world 4 months agoThere just flat out is no solution to gender seperate spaces.
Allow only biological women/men? Transphobic, issues for some intersex people, and you now have transpeople that are clearly not the gender their birth sex suggests in the “”“right”“” bathroom, so even for transphobes this doesn’t work.
Have someone stand in front and judge if people are feminine/masculine enough? Absolutely not holy fuck
Allow people based on gender identity? Any bad actor can just pretend. Absolutely the easiest option though, and imo the best one if we have to seperate them. Thankfully also the one usually implemented.
Allow people based on the gender on their ID? Still sucks for trans people as getting that changed isn’t necessarily easy, plus assuming we don’t havr someone check everyone at the entrance, trans people would be more likely to have someone complain and have to justify themselves. If we make it as easy as it probably should be, bad actors can abuse it just the same.
Thinking about how to make women feel safer in for example gyms seems like a better long term solution for absolutely everyone, but also doesn’t feel like it’s talked about a lot.
how to make women feel safer in for example gyms
The real problem is that gyms don’t pay enough to hire enough good employees. Most people who work at a gym are there because they have free access to the gym. Gym owners are cheap, mainly because gym-goers are cheap.
Have you ever been to a bank and felt unsafe? That’s much rarer because banks have spent a lot of time and money on making you feel safe. Any customers are under constant surveillance and usually on their best behavior.
The real problem is that gyms don’t pay enough to hire enough good employees. Most people who work at a gym are there because they have free access to the gym. Gym owners are cheap, mainly because gym-goers are cheap.
I can’t solve that problem. But me and a few like minded people might be able to pool our resources and open a gym for women only, where they can feel safe.
Even contemplating that "pretending a gender identity" is a backdoor for bad actors is preposterous though. No such evidence from all countries that have self-identification laws. On the contrary abusers and rapists are prevalent in all walks of life without even going through the fuss of "pretending to be trans". Scores of trans people use bathrooms all the same because they are cis-passing. Majority of women feeling ok with trans women using the bathroom. Cis people with non-conforming appearance getting targeted, prominently lesbians. So just the fact that this makes the list is unacceptable and an outcome of toxic evangelical propaganda on the subject. Bathroom usage by gender identity is enabling exactly zero predators. So please stop bringing it up.
octopus_ink@lemmy.ml 4 months ago
That’s because it ends up being the bear meme discussion in microcosm. (At least every time I’ve seen it come up.)
Context - cisgendered man here, FWIW.
Every time I’ve seen any discussion of helping women to feel safer in any context, that discussion is full of men who are offended that women even feel the need to be safer, because they tend not to believe that sexual harassment is as common for women as every woman in my life has repeatedly told me it is. So the conversation becomes about the women being “oversensitive” (or similar euphamism/synonym), not about making the discussed environment safer.
I can’t fathom why I’d give a shit about not being able to go work out a particular gym because women wanted a place to feel safe, unless it was literally the only gym within 50 miles. (And I’m doubtful that’s a common scenario.)
llamajester421@kbin.social 4 months ago
Bigots be like:
Women feel unsafe in presence of men? "Outrageous! NOtaLLmEn"
Trans women want to use the bathroom? "They will rape them because they are biologically men." OR "A male rapist will pretend to be trans to rape them".
You can't beat that logic. That's why the nazis like it. Next step is "black men".
Schadrach@lemmy.sdf.org 4 months ago
So, the short version of this is that you feel explicit sex discrimination is not only acceptable but good, but only in cases where it makes women feel better?
Because I guarantee you most of the people who make the kinds of arguments you are here are not broadly in favor of businesses being allowed to discriminate with respect to sex in general, in large part because it would sometimes inconvenience women.
octopus_ink@lemmy.ml 4 months ago
The short version is that I think safe places for people who have a reason to need them should be encouraged not discouraged.
I guarantee you that the folks who make the sorts of argument you and others are making here are folks who live in an environment that is and has always been architected in a way that is safe and supportive for folks just like them and not so much for folks who aren’t.