Regarding freedom of speech, banning TikTok is not the government oppressing your rights to say things.
Comment on Exclusive: ByteDance prefers TikTok shutdown in US if legal options fail, sources say
kava@lemmy.world 2 months ago
What does everyone think about the TikTok ban?
Personally I think it’s absurd. What happened to freedom of speech? Freedom of association? Free market capitalism?
If an American citizen wants to use a Chinese platform, why don’t they have the right to?
I think the data collection stuff is a red herring. Real reason is that war is coming and they’re preparing the online information space so they can more easily manipulate it. Sort of how they did a test run with covid. Banning misinformation and such.
They don’t have such a friendly relationship with TikTok as they do with Google and Facebook, for example. Behind the scenes, the feds work with them to amplify or suppress certain types of speech.
If the sale doesn’t go through, I don’t see how this will eliminate whatever little bit of credibility the federal government has among the younger generations. 18~25 or so
littlewonder@lemmy.world 2 months ago
kava@lemmy.world 2 months ago
The courts have repeatedly ruled that freedom of speech comes with freedom of association.
Montana tried banning TikTok and a judge blocked it for that reason - it infringes upon free speech. I think Bytedance will likely sue federal government under similar grounds.
The Supreme Court has long held that the First Amendment’s protection of free speech, assembly, and petition logically extends to include a “freedom of association."
It is beyond debate that freedom to engage in association for the advancement of beliefs and ideas is an inseparable aspect of the ‘liberty’ assured by the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment, which embraces freedom of speech. Of course, it is immaterial whether the beliefs sought to be advanced by association pertain to political, economic, religious or cultural matters, and state action which may have the effect of curtailing the freedom to associate is subject to the closest scrutiny.
It appears from the Court’s opinions that the right of association is derivative from the First Amendment guarantees of speech, assembly, and petition,2 although it has at times been referred to as an independent freedom protected by the First Amendment.
Fiivemacs@lemmy.ca 2 months ago
Cool beans. You are free to circumvent the ban, but I saw ban away and don’t stop with just tiktok
Try releasing software in China and NOT adhering their their demands. See how long your software lasts… It’s a two way street here and I’m glad the the US is finally seeing it this way.
kava@lemmy.world 2 months ago
I don’t use Tiktok and never have. I view it more a matter of principle.
China is an authoritarian state. We should not imitate them. Unfortunately I think Zizek was right when he said China’s model is the most effective form of capitalism and predicted that all liberal democracies would eventually converge into a version of that system.
This is what you embrace with open arms. Do you not care about being able to access whatever media you want?
Fiivemacs@lemmy.ca 2 months ago
In a general sense I agree, but from a place whos literal interest is to cause chaos, misinformation and deceit at every possible chance…no. we don’t need to be nice to them or listen to their demands.
admin@lemmy.my-box.dev 2 months ago
a place whos literal interest is to cause chaos, misinformation and deceit at every possible chance
Just a thought… What are the odds of you being victim of propaganda or misinformation?
venusaur@lemmy.world 2 months ago
Only the US is allowed to steal our data and manipulate us with it. Not another country. Duh
LinusWorks4Mo@kbin.social 2 months ago
nice but poor try, wumao.
If an American citizen wants to use a Chinese platform, why don’t they have the right to?
If a Chinese citizen wants to use an American platform, why don’t they have the right to?
kava@lemmy.world 2 months ago
I think it’s amusing how you call me wumao, feeling proud of how clever you are, while advocating for the US to emulate China.
Not_mikey@slrpnk.net 2 months ago
It’s not about the data, it’s about the algorithm. Unlike other social media which has followers, subscribers etc. that dictate what you see tik tok is a pure black box recommendation algorithm. Tons of people’s world views are shaped by tik tok and a slight tweak to this algorithm can have huge political consequences. I’m far from a china hawk but even I can recognize the dangers of allowing that sort of machine to be in the hands of a foreign rival. Ideally we’d take it out of the hands of the corporate interests running the ones here in the u.s. as well, but that doesn’t seem possible right now and at least those companies are more beholden to the American people then byte dance, there are American employees in those companies that can raise a red flag if management is telling them to push the algorithm in a direction.
The youth also probably won’t care in a years time. Even if tik tok actually shuts down in the u.s. instead of selling, which I still doubt they will as that would effectively be burning 10s of billions of dollars to prove a point, the youth can just move onto another app like Instagram reels or YouTube shorts which offer the same experience but aren’t as good because of the mass network effect tik tok has. If everyone is forced out of tik tok and onto one of the other apps they’ll gain that same network effect and have the same experience after a bit of transition/ AI training time. The kids aren’t attached to byte dance or tik tok, they’re attached to the content and content creators who make it, and those can move to another app very easily.
kava@lemmy.world 2 months ago
I appreciate your comment but let me ask you. Are you OK with the federal government getting to decide what is appropriate for you to read or watch?
I read the 3 body problem novel series and it was by a Chinese author. I loved the series and it dealt with a lot of interesting science fiction concepts.
Do you think that it should be banned? What if it’s subtly influencing Americans through propaganda?
Dark_Arc@social.packetloss.gg 2 months ago
There are plenty of other platforms where you can express whatever speech you want however you want. These Chinese authors are not prevented from presenting their opinion.
The Chinese government is however prevented from controlling what information gets broadcasts in the US. That’s why this ban comes with an “or sell” option. They don’t object to the platform, its users, or its content, they object to CCP control over how the platform prioritizes content within the United States. There is no way to protect from political influence of a foreign government while that government has its hands all over the platform without outright policing speech.
This is not new, it’s an update to existing restrictions on foreign countries broadcasting to US citizens. These laws have been on the books for decades, they just haven’t applied to the Internet (similar to how common sense utility law has struggled to be applied to the Internet).
I am very much for a ban or sale. I think most people (myself included) are far less objective than we’d like to believe. The fact that China cares so much about a platform that’s losing money speaks volumes. Well, that and this networkcontagion.us/…/A-Tik-Tok-ing-Timebomb_12.2…
They’ve already banned US controlled promotional algorithms within their own country. They know exactly what they’re doing and all this “the US government is undermining its citizens choice!” talk is China trying to use western values against the west in a sort of “malicious compliance” only they stand to benefit from.
kava@lemmy.world 2 months ago
First off, it doesn’t matter what China is doing. Just because they are doing it, doesn’t mean it’s a justifiable infringement on American citizens. The dynamic between the American citizen and their government is what we consider when determining legality of a law.
Second, removing a platform that people want to communicate on does infringe on speech. You have a right to associate with whoever you want - by the government banning that platform they are telling you who you can and can’t communicate with. Please read previous comment on freedom of association. This is a well established concept with courts ruling this again and again.
The government is arguing that they are justified in this infringement on speech because of national security interests. It is unequivocally an infringement on freedom of speech. It’s just the government is claiming that the pros outweigh the cons.
Sort of like when we infringe on free speech so people can’t yell fire in a movie theater.
Judge Molloy also analyzed the second prong: narrow tailoring. He declared that the state failed to demonstrate that it was not burdening more speech than was necessary to achieve its ends.
… the court found that SB 419 was not narrowly tailored, because Montana had failed to show that the ban would alleviate the harms it sought to address. Molloy determined that, even if SB 419 passed, China would be able to access data on Montanans
There’s an entire legal distinction here between “content-neutral” speech suppression and “content-based”. The federal government’s official stated reason is a “content-neutral” one: China is able to collect data on Americans and this harms national security.
They are not claiming China can influence Americans. Why do you think? Because that would be a “content-based” infringement and therefore subject to a higher level of scrutiny - one that the government likely cannot pass.
Therefore, just like the Montana bill to ban TikTok, the government will have to show that banning TikTok will fix the harm that it’s claiming to address. The law was struck down in Montana because of that reason - banning TikTok does not actually prevent China from collecting data. Anybody can buy data on Americans from many different sources. It’s not a hard thing to do and China could likely do it for a cheaper price than running TikTok.
I believe that the real reason that they are banning TikTok is a “content-based” justification. They don’t want China to influence Americans. They want to have influence and control over the content on TikTok.
This is unconstitutional and deceptive. I hope the USC truly does have political independence and strikes this down. Otherwise this is just another notch on the spiral to authoritarianism. We are becoming China.
Not_mikey@slrpnk.net 2 months ago
If the choice is between the u.s. government and the Chinese government choosing what’s appropriate for me to watch then I’d choose the u.s government as it is still has some democratic levers which the American people can use to stop it from propagandizing too much. There is no such influence they can wield in the Chinese government. I’m not ok with it though and it’s more a matter of the lesser of two evils. Ideally there would be no centralized control over these services and the algorithms would be open source and the servers federated, to allow people to transparently evaluate the biases each service has and make their own decision free from the centralizing network effect present in current social media. If I am unable to inspect it then I want the person who is able to do so to have interests that are better aligned with mine, either an elected representative or at least a worker with similar national interests to me.
As for the book question it’s not a matter of a single book. Unless they’re advocating for atrocities I’m for any creator being allowed on the platform, the problem is how the platform is showing that content, it’s a matter of the book store instead of a single book. If the library has a copy of the three body problem, or even Maos little red book alongside a bunch of other books countering it then that’s fine. But if there’s no library and only one book store in town then the owner of that book store has a lot of political power and should be under a lot of scrutiny. If the owner of that store isn’t a part of the community and doesn’t have interests that align with it, or even run counter to it, then the people of that community are right to become skeptical and demand a more open system. This is why libraries are so important, they provide an information repository owned by the public instead of private interests.
kava@lemmy.world 2 months ago
You are creating a false equivalence here. China is not choosing what is valid or not. They are not preventing you from visiting any other platform. The US government, however, is stepping in and preventing you from visiting a specific platform.
Ideally I agree with you everything would be transparent and open source and we would all be singing hakunah matata.
But if the issue is an opaque system of AI Blackbox algorithms then why target TikTok? All social medias use the same exact principles.
unable to inspect it then I want the person who is able to do so to have interests that are better aligned with mine, either an elected representative or at least a worker with similar national interests to me.
So instead of deciding for yourself, you would rather hand it off to the paternalistic state?
Because newsflash- the executives of TikTok and the CCP officials behind them have less incentive to screw you than the American big tech executives and the federal officials behind them.
a matter of the book store instead of a single book
If we were to use your analogy, it’s not a book store but a farmer’s market. Anyone can set up shop and sell whatever they want.
Your stated issue is that the management of the farmer’s market has the capacity to suppress or amplify certain items depending on their interests.
The problem I see is that what if the American citizen, being fully aware of the bias of this farmer’s market, wants to go on there anyway?
Why should his right be infringed?
Note that the government used very specific language in the ban. There’s a difference between a ban on speech based on the content and one that is content neutral.
For example if I ban a farmer’s market because of a safety issue, that’s a content neutral ban. If I ban because they are selling things I don’t want, that’s a content based ban.
The government is very explicit that this is a content-neutral ban. They claim in the legislation it’s for the explicit purpose of preventing China from collecting data.
Of course, that is nonsense and the real reason is the same one you mention - a content-based justification. Why didn’t they say it?
Because the legal scrutiny for infringing on speech for content-based justification is much higher, and the government would not meet that scrutiny.
Edgarallenpwn@midwest.social 2 months ago
Ehhh I was hopeful at it would lead to more EU style laws over users data and privacy in the US, then I stopped and thought for a minute and realized it wouldn’t happen
Dark_Arc@social.packetloss.gg 2 months ago
It’s not about data. It’s about broadcast content curation (i.e. the TikTok algorithm and how it might be used to change US policy by presenting a very pro-China narrative).
Citizens of the United States have a right to free speech and curation of speech within the United States. Foreign governments do not have this right and having foreign governments directly control the dissemination of information poses a real and active risk (networkcontagion.us/…/A-Tik-Tok-ing-Timebomb_12.2…).
This is a principle that’s been applied to traditional broadcast media for decades. It just hasn’t applied to the Internet.
Data privacy laws would be great and we should be worried about how data is being used but, writing good data privacy laws wouldn’t resolve the major issue here.
Sabata11792@kbin.social 2 months ago
Im just assuming google and Facebook didn't like the competition and bought the vote.
TicToc didn't gaslight and lobby the government enough to be above the law.They didn't pay the bribes.
Mrkawfee@lemmy.world 2 months ago
The ADL and Zionist wanted TikTok gone so they can indoctrinate Gen Z in the art of suepporting apartheid without distractions from the reality based community.
makeshiftreaper@lemmy.world 2 months ago
America has none of those things. We have clear limits on what is and isn’t acceptable speech. We routinely see protest groups beaten, jailed, and killed for protesting things the police like. Finally, you have to live in a bunker if you think we have a free market
Because part of the government’s job is protecting its people. If China gave away a blowjob and cocaine robot and all you had to do was walk it around and give it detailed tours of civilian infrastructure that’d be banned too despite being hugely popular. If the government desides it’s in the best interest of the people to not do something then they have the authority to prevent people to doing it
This is just pure conspiracy talk. Occam’s razor says the simplest solution is usually correct. What’s the simple answer here? Data is becoming one of the most valuable “natural” resources. You don’t hand valuable resources for free to rival governments. You charge them, or you prevent them from taking it. It’s all about money
Call me naive but I like to think young people care about more than just the apps on their phone and are capable of holding a more nuanced view of our government than you clearly are
kava@lemmy.world 2 months ago
There’s always a back and forth between a government respecting personal freedoms and their responsibility to protect it’s people.
There are justified limitations on personal freedoms and unjustified ones. For the classic example, yelling fire in a movie theater. That is a crime because it can cause people to get harmed. It is only a minor infringement on speech, therefore the benefits outweigh the infringement.
Every single time we infringe on personal freedoms, we need to do this calculation.
So there are 3 main justifications for this TikTok ban.
A) stop Chinese data collection. I think this is just misdirection. You say it’s conspiracy, but just like the PATRIOT Act had nothing to do with patriotism or protecting children and the Iraqi war had nothing to do with WMD… the government often misleads or outright lies.
Much of our data is for sale to anyone who wants to buy it. In fact, our law enforcement loves buying data instead of going through the process for a warrant.
There are so many apps out there with less than scrupulous devs who are more than willing to scrape for as much data as possible and sell that off. China can easily acquire massive amounts of data regardless.
stop Chinese influence on Americans. I think this one makes more sense than the first one. China is able to quietly suppress or encourage certain points of views - subtly pushing the 170 million Americans into directions that are beneficial for China’s interests. For example, perhaps media discouraging support for Taiwan.
connected to 2, by banning TikTok the US leaves only the main tech companies which have a proven track record of cooperating with the federal government. Not only in criminal cases but suppressing and amplifying specific types of media.
So what are benefits? US has better control of the digital media landscape. Cost? Americans are being restricting from accessing media they would otherwise access.
I don’t see this as a worthwhile exchange. I think federal government should stay out of the media space. I believe this because we are a free society.
You are right that we don’t always live up to that term, and never really have. But we get a hell of a lot closer than China or Russia. We shouldn’t be moving towards them in ideological terms, but away from them.
As for the young people, there are 170 million people on the app and it skews younger. A large portion of these people use Tiktok as their primary social media. A lot of these will be pushed towards anti-establishment and radical ideologies. Tiktok already leans leftist (and not neoliberal left).
makeshiftreaper@lemmy.world 2 months ago
What freedom do you have that you think this is infringing on?
Correct, it had nothing to do with patriotism or protecting children. It had to do with war profiteering. That’s the simple answer to basically every question that starts with “why did the American government do…” It made wealthy Americans richer. That’s the default US policy
Yup, and that’s fine in the way that it’s fine for us to ship oil, soybeans, and semiconductors to China. As long as America gets the first bite of the pie, what happens after that is mostly fine
I think this is ancillary benefit that is mostly being pushed by our military. I know it’s the “reason” they’re giving but I agree this is not the primary purpose
We do not. By basically every measurable metric of “freedom” the US doesn’t even crack the top 10 in the world and on a lot of lists we don’t make the top 20. I don’t know what Americans think “freedom” means but whenever I hear people talk about it I often wonder if we live in the same country
It’s pretty hyperbolic to say that banning the Chinese pipeline of disinformation and spyware makes America ideologically similar to Russia
That’s just conjecture. Do you know how many social media sites we’ve seen come and go? You assert people will become anti-establishment, I assert they’ll just move on to other social media. Both of our assertions are equally valid without evidence
aniki@lemm.ee 2 months ago
We’ve seen what happens when services are shut down – it’s consolidation. The whole fucking internet has been a consolidation of thousands of independent websites.
The web wasn’t just better back then, it was diverse.
Fal@yiffit.net 2 months ago
You really don’t see the answer to this or are you just being intentionally ignorant. Would you feel the same way if the government banned lemmy?