Comment on For the first time, the U.S. call for an immediate Gaza ceasefire at the U.N. But now Russia and China vetoe the draft.

• johnlobo@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  this is the funniest joke ever. israel is a bully, does a bully stop bullying because the victim don’t fight back?

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• NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

  Truly I think if Hamas ceases all hostilities and Israel continues then the UN will actually take a hard stance against Israel

  No way. Not happening. Israel has a 75-year long history of oppressing Palestinians. For comparison Hamas was founded in the 80s to fight against Israeli aggression. If Hamas mattered in this equation there wouldn't be government-sanctioned pogroms happening in the West Bank.

  It’s just hard to completely condemn them when the opposition has been firing shitload of rockets at them for ages.

  If you look at the history of the conflict you'll notice that rocket attacks started in the Second Intifada after Israel proposed a "peace" deal so bad Israel's foreign affairs minster said he wouldn't take it if he was in Yasser Arafat's place. They then stopped when the Intifada ended and started after Israel's blockade of Gaza. A blockade is an act of war.

  Like what should Israel do? Give in to demands made by what is essentially a terrorist group that hasn’t negotiated in the past?

  And you fell line and sinker for the Israeli propaganda. Hamas has what is likely the longest history of successfully negotiating with Israel in the world (at least when it comes to Palestine). "Hamas doesn't negotiate" is pure nonsense designed to trick people who don't know better. There were multiple Hamas attempts at peace that Israel actively sabotaged.

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  • throwwyacc@lemmynsfw.com ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

    To say Israel has just been oppressing Palestinians for 75 years is reductionist and doesn’t take into account any of the reasons for conflict over that time

    Didn’t that minister actually say the conditions weren’t right at the time. And in Arafats place he wouldn’t take the deal. Not that the deal was actually bad? And that’s rhetorical, I’m 80% sure without actually pulling up the direct quote

    A blockade is not necessarily an act of war. If attacks are being launched from part of your country and you block certain goods going into the region I’d hardly call that an act of war

    Can you point at a time Hamas legitimately put forward a reasonable attempt to negotiate?

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    • NoneOfUrBusiness@kbin.social ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

      To say Israel has just been oppressing Palestinians for 75 years is reductionist and doesn’t take into account any of the reasons for conflict over that time

      No? You should read more about the Nakba. Palestinians in Israel were subject to military rule where they were literal second class citizens until 1966. They still are, but it's less obvious now compared to when they could legally be run out of their homes.

      Didn’t that minister actually say the conditions weren’t right at the time. And in Arafats place he wouldn’t take the deal. Not that the deal was actually bad?

      Shlomo Ben-Ami stated on Democracy Now! that "Camp David was not the missed opportunity for the Palestinians, and if I were a Palestinian I would have rejected Camp David, as well.

      But that aside, the deal was just fucking horrible. Hell, they started with the position that they wouldn't return East Jerusalem no matter what. That's a deal-breaker right there.

      A blockade is not necessarily an act of war. If attacks are being launched from part of your country and you block certain goods going into the region I’d hardly call that an act of war

      Again the Israeli propaganda. First of all, no, a blockade is always an act of war. Israel blockades Gaza by land, sea and air, in complete violation of its territorial integrity. Second, the attacks came after the blockade because Gazans, for obvious reasons, didn't take well to being starved. Third, it's not "certain goods"; it's almost everything, imports and exports. Israel has stated before that they're deliberately keeping the Gazan economy on the brink of collapse.

      Can you point at a time Hamas legitimately put forward a reasonable attempt to negotiate?

      Let's see...

      2008 ceasefire: Hamas followed it while Israel kept up the blockade and airstrikes until the whole thing went under.

      2012 ceasefire: Same as above.

      2013-2014 united government that Israel opposed at every turn until it collapsed.

      Not Hamas but 2014 peace initiative where 'Netanyahu did not move more than an inch".

      From what I see here a lot of your image of the conflict comes from bold-faced Israeli propaganda.

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      • throwwyacc@lemmynsfw.com ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

        Just to cut your tirade short. The irony of the “bro you just fell for propaganda”, is that you’re literally doing that except on the other side I have no illusions about Israel. They continue to do some pretty heinous shit, including their expansion of settlements, which I believe they are continuing in the dumbest move of all time

        But to remove all context from how this region got fucked to begin with is stupid. The Nakba wasn’t some random event, it was during and after a civil war in the region, at a time where arguably both sides had good reasons to fight. The Israelis needed somewhere to live, and had been given it by the British government, who maybe shouldn’t have but it was tricky anyway. And the Arabs on that land (now Israel/Palestine) fairly reasonably didn’t want that, and decided they should attack them instead of live along side them as an Arab majority mind you

        I just don’t think Hamas is a good solution to the conflict. The only way I see of moving forward is to fuck Hamas off, hold an election and move towards a 2 state solution. But even that’s hard as the majority of Palestinians think that they’ll get their way via military action, which is definitely not the case

        I’m really curious for you, do you think Palestine are completely innocent in this conflict? Is it really as straightforward to you as Israel bad?

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