Comment on double slit
Cethin@lemmy.zip 6 months agoUse a computer? I guess you could say it all collapses when an actual consciousness checks what state things are at, but that’d be a rediculous claim to make. This is where Occam’s Razor is useful. Why introduce a concept of a consciousness being required when it would function identically but be significantly stranger and more complex?
What is consciousness to the universe anyway? It’s nothing but a system of electrical impulses, and there no reason to think there’s anything physically special about it. It’s just an interesting phenomenon that happened, but fundamentally it isn’t anything special.
I guess you could say it all collapses when an actual consciousness checks what state things are at, but that’d be a rediculous claim to make.
Would it? We now know with the recent experiments with Bell’s inequality that quantum mechanics can’t be reduced to a local hidden-variable theory, doesn’t that at least in theory leave space for consciousness? Sure you could go with superdeterminism but currently that seems equally unfalsifiable as a consciousness-based theory.
Sure, it leaves space for anything. It leaves space for (any) God. It doesn’t make it useful to consider it though. There are literally an infinite number of things we could make up to explain it, but that doesn’t make them equally likely. The most likely is the one that doesn’t require strange assumptions, like the universe caring about consciousness, or that particles are conscious like another person said, or the hand of God literally reaching in to set the states exactly himself. Some hypotheses shouldn’t be entertained because they require so many strange assumptions they’re essentially useless and just a waste of time.
It doesn’t make it useful to consider it though.
Why not? My own consciousness is literally the one and only thing I have direct, ineffable evidence of existing. Unlike God, you actually have proof of your own consciousness existing, the same consciousness that doesn’t really fit anywhere in our purely quantitative descriptions of the universe. I think that’s reason enough to give the idea some credence.
the same consciousness that doesn’t really fit anywhere in our purely quantitative descriptions of the universe.
How does it not fit in our quantitative descriptions? We can measure its activity. It behaves differently when in a coma, or when thinking about different things, or when dead. We can grow neurons and form connections with them outside the brain to do computations. We can’t make anything as complex as the brain yet obviously, but we understand how it functions. What part of it doesn’t fit in a perfectly quantitative description.
I’d love for some mystical thing to exist, but literally every mystical thing people have believed for tens of thousands of years has been wrong. Why should we expect any different here? Lightning isn’t caused by spirits in the mountains dancing, a god throwing lightning bolts, or anything else mystical. We can’t fully describe the mechanisms at work perfectly, but that doesn’t mean we don’t understand it. We could assume it’s something mystical into the gaps because it sounds cool, but theres no reason to think it isn’t something material that can be learned.
I’m totally in agreement that the observer effect is not caused by consciousness, but…
What is consciousness to the universe anyway? It’s nothing but a system of electrical impulses,
This is a claim unsupported by evidence. I submit to you that just as we can explain the observer effect without invoking consciousness, we can also explain cognition without it. We can’t even prove consciousness exists at all! I know I’m conscious because I directly experience it, but I can’t prove to another person that I experience anything, nor can I prove to myself that anyone else experiences anything.
I know my consciousness, memory, and the brain are intimately connected. I know that what people describe as a loss of consciousness on my part is strongly correlated with gaps in my memory. I know those gaps correspond to time periods when period tell me I’m unresponsive to stimuli. I even know other people become unresponsive in connection to same kinds of things that cause gaps in my memory, and they likewise describe similar experiences to mine when, say, they ingest substances that I’ve found to alter my behavior, and which feel like they alter the quality of my consciousness.
All of that is to say that we have very good reasons to suppose that consciousness (if it exists) interacts with the world of measurable phenomena all the time, and that other people experience consciousness. But what we can’t do is measure the difference between a conscious being and a p-zombie. There’s plenty of correlation, but correlation is famously not causation, and we don’t have a testable theory that would explain the causal link, or allow us to test whether, say, a cat, a tree, or an LLM is conscious.
K0W4LSK1@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 months ago
Sure I agree it could be that as well but there is no actual way to prove that. Since we don’t actually understand what it is or how it works we can’t remove it, therefore with materialism it’s not provable either way. it’s also another theory and why I started my original comment with maybe. It’s better to explore that data in my opinion then outright deny it without any actual evidence proving it’s not. Occams razor is a cop out here
Cethin@lemmy.zip 6 months ago
There’s no reason to prove that any god(s) exist or not either. It doesn’t mean we should waste our time with their explanations. The hand of God could be reaching down to set things up just in time for us to see them and that’s exactly as reasonable of an explanation as the universe is aware we’re conscious so sets things up just in time for us to see them. The explanation that requires adding the least number of new things is that interactions for a collapse of the waveform and it happens then, not waiting for a “conscious” observer.
If the conscious observer thing were true, what would it decide is consciousness? Would it require sapience? Sentience? Does it happen for dolphins? Apes? Monkeys? Mice? Tardigrades? What level of synapse connections is it waiting for to decide that’s enough? What about humans born without a brain? Can they not see anything? This hypothesis requires so many weird assumptions that it’s less than useless. A god existing makes more sense.
K0W4LSK1@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 months ago
Idk why that is so hard for you to even ponder
So string theory isn’t science either show me where strong theory has been proven in any sort of fashion
Cethin@lemmy.zip 6 months ago
I can obviously ponder it. I’ve shown that. It’s just that there’s no reason to believe it’s any more real than Harry Potter is. It may make you feel nice, but it doesn’t do anything. If consciousness can’t be defined by whoever is positing the idea then it’s not useful to consider.
String theory is not really, no. It’s theoretical physics. There are experiments that were designed to test it and they all have failed. String theory is a useful mathematical model to predict some results, but it’s not more than that. It’s also almost certainly wrong, but it can still be useful. It’s also almost certainly wrong, because it fails to make new predictions that come true. It can just adapt to give the correct result after we know what it should be. It’s useful, but it doesn’t make it true.
K0W4LSK1@lemmy.dbzer0.com 6 months ago
philosophynow.org/…/The_Case_For_Panpsychism
There is a case for even the most fundamental particles having a basic form of consciousness. And there is studies and theories being created this is just new science and extremely hard for materialists to wrap their heads around I understand that. here are some other sources you can check out for data that I posted on another comment as well Donald Hoffman Ted talk Papers from bernardo
And I want to finish off I do not fully believe these theories. They are that just theories just like most things in science start off and still are today.
Cethin@lemmy.zip 6 months ago
What does it even mean for particles to have consciousness? What would that even mean for that term anymore? How can they be conscious without any ability to think? If you stretch it to particles (so essentially everything) to just say they interact with things, then the term is meaningless.
It’s similar to the god of the gaps argument. You can always push an idea into further unknowns when previous beliefs are disproven. Just because the thing that’s left can’t be disproven doesn’t mean it’s any more valid. I can make up any number of equally valid hypotheses that cant be tested, but I don’t expect you to entertain them. We don’t entertain the idea that the majority of gods exist (or, in many of our cases, any of them). If we took the time to entertain every possible idea we could have we’d sit around all day and do nothing else. There’s literally infinite ways to explain this if you allow every supernatural explanation in.
Data means facts and statistics, not just people talking about things. The data we have is things like the double slit experiment. You can have different hypotheses to explain the data, but hypotheses themselves aren’t data. Also, pedantic, but a theory is something that’s been tested and withstood scrutiny, and a hypothesis is a potential explanation that hasn’t withstood scrutiny yet).
space_comrade@hexbear.net 6 months ago
What’s so weird about any of those questions/assumptions? A consciousness-based interpretation of quantum mechanics would need any conscious observer, that would include dolphins since we’re pretty sure they’re having conscious experiences.
Cethin@lemmy.zip 6 months ago
Why it’s weird is because it’s assuming the universe is choosing what level is conscious. As you say, we’re pretty sure they’re conscious. How do we know that? Brain scans and watching their behavior. What happens to something without a brain but still with sensors? Is that somehow conscious? What about a brain but much less complex? Why is the universe deciding how to behave based on this? It’d be really outlandish to expect this behavior from the universe, which isn’t a creature and just following a set of rules.
It’s a much simpler explanation that interactions that require information force that information to collapse. We don’t need any strange justifications or anything deciding what level becomes conscious, which is just a word we made up several hundred years ago and is meaningless to the universe. Consciousness is just a series of impulses in a system, a system which can go wrong in many ways and is not a fundamental thing.
ProfessorOwl_PhD@hexbear.net 6 months ago
This is literally the closest form of consciousness to our own - the easiest and most obvious case. They weren’t actually asking if dolphins would count, they’re asking at what point it counts as consciousness. The ones you need to answer are things like tardigrades, bacteria and viruses, or nonphysical forms of consciousness. After all, you’re seriously claiming that the scientific definition of observation is observation by a conscious mind, not interaction with another aspect of the universe, so why don’t we consider all the nonfalsifiables? Do ghosts collapse the quantum superposition?