Accepting a ToS update simply by virtue of no action is also questionable
Even it being âquestionableâ is a fucking outrage â it should be so blatantly, obviously, disallowed that a lawyer should lose their license just for proposing it!
tty5@lemmy.world â¨6⊠â¨months⊠ago
I donât see how an email that has no proof of delivery (could have ended in spam for example) would be legally binding.
Accepting a ToS update simply by virtue of no action is also questionable unless provisions permitting that were in the ToS youâve accepted and even then it would not work in the European Union, because thatâs listed in the forbidden clauses registry.
grue@lemmy.world â¨6⊠â¨months⊠ago
gian@lemmy.grys.it â¨6⊠â¨months⊠ago
Nope. The silent consent concept is a nice thing, it solve a lof of problems both for companies and private citizens. I could offer plenty of examples of the correct use of the concept that solve problems.
23andMe is just doing a big dick move trying to avoid to be sued for the leak.
porksoda@lemmy.world â¨6⊠â¨months⊠ago
I would like some of your plenty of examples.
hypnotoad__@lemmy.world â¨6⊠â¨months⊠ago
Can you share some of those examples please?
gian@lemmy.grys.it â¨6⊠â¨months⊠ago
Replying to you, but it is valid also for @porksoda@lemmy.world.
If you ask for permission to do certain works in your house, you present the project to your city council, or the required office, and if after a given time (depending on what what you want to do) they donât object then you have the permission. Before the introduction of the silent consent, you have no idea about how many time you need to wait before you get an answer and it was prone to corruption while now the âyesâ is the default unless there are real problems. It is not a perfect solution, but it is way better than before.
Basically all the interactions with the authorities are on a silent consent base when the authority in question does not need to produce something to give back.All the minor changes to the contract with banks, utility companies and so on: they propose the new terms and if you donât accept in a given time from the moment you read it you accept it. By law in the event I refuse the new terms, I donât end with the old ones but the contract end and in the case it has penalties for early terminations, these are nullified if the penalties are applied to the other side.
On the other hand, this way a company has a certain deadline after which the new terms come into effect and as a side bonus the fact that it has to handle only the exceptions (who donât accept) and not all the ones that are ok.Wedding publications, since we have not the whole âif you disagree to this marriage talk now or shut up foreverâ part of the ceremony, to be sure that there is no hidden problems we put an announce in a designated public place (usually a notice board at the town hall and/or your church) for a given period of time, usually 2 or 3 weeks, and then if nobody object you can marry.
I agree that this is probably something old that were done back at the time but it work on the same principle. Of course now there are other ways to know if someone is already married (on the civil side) or is divorced (on the religious side) or there are some hindrances.And before someone ask, we also have examples where this approach were shoot down: the last of these is when a big back decide to move part of their clients to a virtual back (a different branch of itself) and they were stopped on the basis that this change it too radical to be done this way (even if the notice was about 6 months). Other cases hit utilities companies which in some cases where forced by a judge to pay compensation to the customers because what they done was basically illegal and the silent consent where then void.
HarkMahlberg@kbin.social â¨6⊠â¨months⊠ago
Not OP, here's a Law Stack Exchange thread where silence (in conjunction with other actions) is consent.
Here's where silence is NOT consent.
Hamartiogonic@sopuli.xyz â¨6⊠â¨months⊠ago
My ISP, phone company, bank, insurance company and everyone else send me TOS related messages from time to time. Usually, the message is something along the lines of: âWeâre altering the deal. Pray we donât alter it any furtherâ
EatYouWell@lemmy.world â¨6⊠â¨months⊠ago
Youâd think that, but you know those âdonât remove or warranty is voidâ stickers on stuff? Theyâre illegal.
MumboJumbo@lemmy.world â¨6⊠â¨months⊠ago
Not illegal, just not legally binding.
tty5@lemmy.world â¨6⊠â¨months⊠ago
Every time an ISP does that around here they send you a notification via certified mail with a prepaid return envelope and a service cancellation form included - you can decide to not continue using the service without any early cancellations fees etc.
If they fail to do that they get fined by consumer protection agency, are required to return any fees they charged based on the change and they get to start over - send a notification that follows the rules resetting the clock for those who opt to cancel
Kbobabob@lemmy.world â¨6⊠â¨months⊠ago
Why would you need proof of delivery? The original email gives instructions. You follow those instructions and can prove you did so with date and timestamps. I donât see the issue.
NAK@lemmy.world â¨6⊠â¨months⊠ago
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-repudiation
Legally you have to be able to prove someone received a thing. Itâs why you get served when youâre sued. An agent physically hands you the complaint (or whatever theyâre called). If the papers were put in the mail the person being sued could say they never received them.
DeadlineX@lemm.ee â¨6⊠â¨months⊠ago
Couldnât the same be said about the TOS updates though? Would they not need to prove it was delivered?
Uncle_Bagel@midwest.social â¨6⊠â¨months⊠ago
Exactly. Thatâs why an email saying you are losing your rights unless you opt out is invalid. You cant prove that i ever saw/received that email
NAK@lemmy.world â¨6⊠â¨months⊠ago
Thatâs the whole point. They can force you to agree to updated TOS before they allow you to access their app.
Kbobabob@lemmy.world â¨6⊠â¨months⊠ago
Canât you trace an email and prove it was delivered? Even mail you sign for only proves you received it, not that you opened it.
NAK@lemmy.world â¨6⊠â¨months⊠ago
No. You can confirm the server received it. Thatâs different from a user opening it and reading it
FurtiveFugitive@lemm.ee â¨6⊠â¨months⊠ago
I thought the same thing when my Disney+ rate went up a couple months ago and I couldnât find the email warning about it in my inbox or spam folders.
Why do we let these companies get away with everything? If the rates are going up, show me in the app/ui. Make it opt in. Disable my ability to watch anything until I approve the increase in spend. It should be illegal to just change the terms of a contract and say âI sent you an email.â