Oh my goodness you’re one of those people. Go read about UBI and then come back and talk.
Ok, who will grow food? Who will truck it to grocery stores? Who will work at the store?
spacecowboy@sh.itjust.works 8 months ago
Blamemeta@lemm.ee 8 months ago
I have, with a critical mind. If no one works, people starve.
spacecowboy@sh.itjust.works 8 months ago
You clearly haven’t. People don’t just sit at home and collect UBI. People are clearly addicted to consumerism, and that requires having a job. People also enjoy working.
You don’t have a critical mind and you aren’t discussing this in good faith because you clearly think if UBI was enacted that people would all become lazy and sit and home and do nothing. That you think this way shows everyone that you HAVENT done any research or reading on UBI.
Blamemeta@lemm.ee 8 months ago
Have you met people? Get out of your bubble. Fucking hell, thats the daftest thing Ive ever heard, and I got an A in gender studies. (It was an elective, and I wanted to challenge my view that gender studies was bullshit, sue me)
Delphia@lemmy.world 8 months ago
Most wouldnt, but a significant percentage would. I think enough that you cant discount those people from any discussion on UBI.
In Australia we have social security and I know people who are 3rd generation jobless and they dont usually supplement their social security with a casual job, its usually drug dealing or other crime.
Im all for a realistic discussion on UBI but you have to examine how its going to impact all strata of society. Including the ones who will use the lack of any meaningful motivation to do better or be better people.
intensely_human@lemm.ee 8 months ago
You’re right. If no one works, people starve.
There’s no reason to assume nobody would work under UBI though.
Sheeple@lemmy.world 8 months ago
A critical lack of mind
mp3@lemmy.ca 8 months ago
UBI desn’t mean that you stop working, it’s just that everyone receives a share of money, at least enough so that you don’t end up on the street if you end up without a job. Easier to bounce back. The rest is additional income on top of UBI.
intensely_human@lemm.ee 8 months ago
Also like, our society already does provide free food and shelter to people. All it asks is some basic niceties like “quiet after 11pm” or “don’t poop in the shower”.
I know. I’ve been homeless, been very well fed and very well protected from the elements, and well-clothed too, entirely for free.
People act like our society just lets people drop and that’s not true. We’ve got free resources out the wazoo for people.
But there are a lot of people for whom availability of resources isn’t the problem.
This is my way of saying that, even with UBI, there will be homeless people.
And conservatives will say “we give that guy $1000 a month and he sits there and shoots heroin in the park all day … I’m not giving him any more” and liberals will say “You know $1000 a month isn’t that much money and we should be offering free counseling”.
Then a decade later there will be that guy who shits on the park bench and rips smelly farts in his counseling sessions and doesn’t do the work.
As a society we’ve basically solved the problems that can be solved with free food and housing because … well because we have that as a feature of our society already,
One thing that makes UBI better than what we have now, is the fact it’s not a perverse incentive structure.
Right now all the free shit we give people is based on them “demonstrating need”. This means if they want to rise out of poverty, they need to go through a weird, unnatural zone on their work-to-benefit curve that’s flat, They do more work, and see no benefit.
Or if the program is really badly designed, it’s not just level it slopes down. Like you get a $200/mo raise, it puts you over a threshold, and you lose your $500/mo EBT benefits.
That kind of thing is toxic and evil. That’s like pushing crack on kids. Except instead of little identifiable crystals it’s at least easy to conceptualize saying “no” to, the dopamine-ruining substance is ethereal and takes the form of tables showing income thresholds in little pamphlets in government offices. Instead of a 10-second timeframe where you either hit that pipe or not, the game a person has to play with our welfare system has rounds lasting months at a time. It’s insidious and evil.
And if you’re in a position to receive this welfare, everyone on your side is encouraging you to take it.
And UBI doesn’t suffer from that mental-health-destroying, prefrontal-cortex-shrinking pattern. It’s giving with a truly open hand. It’s a ladder that doesn’t extract a price in bone density for each rung you climb.
mp3@lemmy.ca 8 months ago
wow, thanks for sharing your insight
Wogi@lemmy.world 8 months ago
Let’s say you’re a scummy piece of shit landlord. It’s a bit redundant I know but just bear with me.
You’re a scummy piece of shit landlord (SPOSL) and you know for a fact that every single one of your tenants suddenly can afford 2000 extra dollars per month. You’re probably not going to get away with taking all of that, but you’re a SPOSL, you’re definitely going to try to get some.
You also know that housing is being treated as a commodity so your tenants don’t have anywhere else to go, and that because all landlords are SPOSLs, you know they’ll all be doing the same thing.
Suddenly rent goes up across the board. They only people safe are the people in fixed rate mortgages.
But they’re only safe from that one particular kind of price gouging.
Unless you’re on a very fixed contact, everything you pay monthly for suddenly got more expensive over night. Your Internet will be going up, your phone bill will be going up, maybe not immediately, but when you renew.
Any common household item built down to a price, basically anything that can shrinkflate, when everyone has more money, will inflate instead. Because they know that consumers have more to spend, and won’t look at the price as closely as they used to.
Basically everyone, simultaneously, moves up on the doesn’t spendability side. And so prices move to adjust accordingly.
UBI works in small scale experiments because small scale experiments don’t have this effect. No one knows who’s getting more money and the market can’t adjust. But the market will adjust where it can.
I know it sounds nice, but it’s not the golden ticket it’s being made out to be.
Address healthcare, address housing, do it all independently of UBI so that hopefully it never becomes required.
To be clear I have absolutely no problem with guaranteeing basic needs are met, I think that’s a great idea. UBI does not do that.
mp3@lemmy.ca 8 months ago
Another issue is that housing is perceived as an investment. There would have to be some policies to be put in place to avoid abuse for sure.
Wogi@lemmy.world 8 months ago
How about this as an alternative. Housing is guaranteed. Full stop. The only way to really do that is to build an assload government housing, and anyone who wants to live there, can. No questions asked. In fact it’s assumed everyone will want the free apartment. One per family. Might be a lot of excess apartments going unused but I don’t see that as a problem.
Food, also guaranteed. And not just cheese but meals full of good nutrients. You want it, just show up and collect it. Is it good, no maybe not. But it’s available and no one is going hungry.
Healthcare, universally covered. No one is going in to debt to get their basic healthcare needs met. Cosmetics aren’t but basic healthcare needs are.
No need for cash, because it’s all taken care of. It’s not going to be enough for most, no. But it’s not like work won’t still be available to anyone that wants it. Hell, wages probably go up as people who don’t want to work no longer have to.
intensely_human@lemm.ee 8 months ago
Everyone doesn’t have more spending power under UBI; some people would be paying more in taxes than they’re getting back from the pool.
But yeah, if you give everyone in a certain group more money to spend, that’s more demand and hence higher prices assuming fixed supply.
So really, to avoid that issue with housing, you’d need to reduce friction to increasing supply. Maybe that means letting people build higher density housing without having to wait for the government to re-zone from low to high density. Or removing the minimum size on apartments, whatever.
Point is your market will adapt to the newly-super-profitable endeavor of landlording, by providing more housing.
Because as long as there’s any vacant housing, landlords are not free to price fix however they see fit. I mean they could if they were all in cahoots, but they’re not. They’re in competition.
intensely_human@lemm.ee 8 months ago
Probably people wanting to make some money.
hperrin@lemmy.world 8 months ago
People will still work. UBI is enough that you’re not on the street, not enough that you’re living the high life.
Blamemeta@lemm.ee 8 months ago
Man Im glad you’re not making decisions.
Crikeste@lemm.ee 8 months ago
You criticize but offer nothing of value except “no, you’re stupid”
Man I’m glad you’re not making decisions.
spittingimage@lemmy.world 8 months ago
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Marketsupreme@lemm.ee 8 months ago
Imagine supporting ideas and policies that help others which in turn helps you. Would be so crazy .
Blamemeta@lemm.ee 8 months ago
I don’t know man, I like having food. Keeps me from dying. Water too now that I mention it.