You assume that I assume that you disagree with me.
Well, I am making a counterpoint to your comments about people having nothing better to do and not having a common goal as a collective. This one woman achieved something extremely worthwhile, and probably wasn’t working in isolation. She brought attention to some absurd bans on free speech, and by calling the government’s bluff on it, helped to reduce the chilling effect on dissent that such restrictions are intended to create. It takes courage, but the most effective way to oppose an unjust law is to break that law, openly and with as much publicity as possible. It draws attention to what is wrong in a way that an open chat simply fails to do.
I’m not opposed to verbal persuasion, but it has limitations. Sure you might be able to convince one person of something in a face to face conversation. But that’s small fry compared to the influence of internet forums, which have become overrun with bots, paid shills, foreign interference, partisan moderators and hidden algorithms designed to maximize engagement and promote particular viewpoints.
Sure you can try to change people’s minds and/or maintain a balanced worldview in that arena. But any large scale forum for talk tends to create delusion, division and outrage, by design. It keeps dissent in a form that is limited and manipulated. Keep talking by all means, but people like this woman are doing more to improve the world than mere talk ever could.
ForgottenUsername@lemmy.world 3 days ago
All I say to this is, if you witness these events you’ll see it is often students around uni age, or retirees, both with too much time on thier hands. You wont see the 28 year old mum of two, or the 38 year old fella trying to make it in banking. Cos they are at work, contributing to society. This very event was a student group.
This girl achieved nothing except getting a permanent stamp on her criminal record, and costing the tax payer more dollars.
This is why I say a more persuasive approach is better, it’s more effective and will change other points of view. Is it more difficult, I agree with you, but no one is gonna witness what happened here and go ‘geez I’ve been wrong all this time and now I’m gonna change my point of view’ so continuing it will always lead to a more isolated (but loud) group instead of a broader movement.
That’s why I say instead of going to a protest chat with your social group and respectfully bring up the issue, listen and have a respectful sharing of ideas, you might walk away with 3 or 4 more people leave that have changed thier point of view, and another 2 that have had thiers challenged, and are now closer to yours. That is far more effective than this entire event, and if everyone did this, you’d be amazed at the change that would happen.
bampop@lemmy.world 3 days ago
By “contributing to society” do you mean stuck at work all week, too busy, too exhausted and too tied up by your financial obligations to ever dare to rock the boat in any way? These students and retirees don’t have too much time on their hands. They have ENOUGH time on their hands to get out there and make a difference. I would hate to live in a world where no person is ever free enough to do such a thing, but that is the way things are going. I guess you’ll be very happy to get there.
ForgottenUsername@lemmy.world 3 days ago
No I mean going to work, paying your taxes, using your earnt money to buy things from other people is contributing to society.
Perhaps you work at a mechanic, and you fix cars for the removalist, who moves a banker, who manages finances for a fabricator, who buys a coffee from the cafe.
This is contributing to society and is what makes the economy work, without a strong economy australia will be a husk with no influence. So yes going to work is contributing.
And yes there is a whole discussion on financial obligations and people not owning stuff and being in debt to the hilt, but I’m not sure this is the right page for it.
shads@lemy.lol 3 days ago
See the problem I have with this take is that almost everyone I know understands that they have to work in order to maintain a standard of living. Some of them are also conciously aware that this contributes to an overarching societal progression. The contribution our politicians should be making is to enact the will of the people they represent, this is where I see the breakdown occuring. We have a federal government that is apparently far more beholden to lobbyists and corporate interests, we have state governments who are similar, we have local councils that seemingly represent their own interests. Without people willing to put themselves on the line to highlight the failings of our governments and the supporting apparatus then when do we expect them to change? I’m sorry but no amount of contributing to the smooth operation of society is going to fix the problems we currently have, or the ones that are looming in front of us. Once we regulate AI, tighten our tax code to make businesses and corporations pay their fair share, inhibit the influence of lobbyists, get serious on finding and punishing corruption then we can talk about if protesters should be doing something more “productive”. But if you think some older people marching against over reaching anti-public laws has more of a damaging effect on our society than all the problems we face I’m afraid you and I just exist in different worlds. A strong society should never fear its members protesting, we need to stop licking the boot and start standing up to the people wearing it.
cdzero@lemmy.ml 3 days ago
They’re not allowed to have a day off work?
bampop@lemmy.world 3 days ago
I’ll try not to overlap too much with what shads has said, since they really gave a better explained and more complete answer than I would have.
What interests me here is the disparity between our points of view. In the spirit of finding understanding and common ground, as you have championed, I’d consider digging a little deeper into that. Of course I can only say how it looks from my point of view. It seems that your point of view is that we should all seek to be cogs in the machine, and any concerns we may have about the nature of the machine should be discussed quietly without ruffling anyone’s feathers. The problem I have with that, is that the machine is clearly working to increase corruption and wealth disparity. We are heading for disaster.
So while there is great social value in work and building a strong economy, it is also extremely important to call out injustice and corruption, and fight for the rights and representation of the people. Otherwise those economic benefits will only expand the financial obesity of a few people, while 99% of us are gradually reduced to serfdom or worse.
And this, it seems to me, is where you have a blind spot. You’re saying that protesting and wearing banned slogans on clothing is a bad thing. We’re focusing on a particular act of protest which was clearly successful, as it brought publicity to the absurdity and overreach of this ban on speech, while also combating the chilling effect it was intended to have. But you will not acknowledge that it was successful. You say it only serves to polarize opinion against the protestor. I can only suppose that this reflects your personal reaction to it. You’re applying a circular logic that says because you feel negatively about protest, then protest must be a bad thing because it only causes negative feelings.
But circular logic aside, why else would you feel negatively about this? Is this woman not fighting for your rights? Is she not fighting against corruption and injustice? It seems your principal argument is mainly about the ineffectiveness of that action, which rests on your own perception and the aforementioned circular logic.
I wonder where those self-reinforcing negative feelings come from. I would guess they are the product of conservative ideology, which even if you disagree with it on principle, seems to have left a tendency to view certain groups of people, such as students or protestors, in an overwhelmingly negative light. Is further education, or taking a stand against corruption, really such a bad thing? Where does the reinforcement of that mindset come from? Who does it serve?
luciferofastora@feddit.org 3 days ago
“Too much”? Having time to fight for a cause is “too much”? Or is it that the rest of us have too little?
For the students, it’s their future on the line. What good does a clean record do under the boot? They have everything to win.
For retirees, it’s the most selfless thing one could ask for: to put their own wellbeing on the line for a future that won’t affect them as much any more.
The mom of two has more to lose than the retiree or the student. Her children’s immediate need for survival and care trumps the political objective. The 38 year old probably also has a family, or maybe they’re jaded and have given up on fighting for progress or simply don’t care.
But either way, it boils down to: Students and retirees have the time for activism, less attachments and the cause to make a better future. If they succeed, we all benefit from it. We should be cheering them on!
And giving censorship the finger.
xep@discuss.online 3 days ago
It’s the right and privilege of our youth to be able to do things like this, and taking it away from them makes society worse for everyone.