People love to criticize the marketplace of ideas and sure it’s imperfect… but what’s he alternative? Covering your ears and going lalalalala is even less effective than persuasion.
The idealist, liberal myth of the “marketplace of ideas,” in the face of domestic and Israeli fascism.
Socialists—and in particular antifascists & Marxists—understand the paradox of tolerance.
LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net 1 day ago
davel@lemmy.ml 23 hours ago
LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net 22 hours ago
Well I don’t think that’s very effective either but if we can’t have a discussion then we’ll just have to disagree.
davel@lemmy.ml 22 hours ago
It’s worked before. If only we’d had more premature antifascists, we might have nipped it in the bud before it enveloped most of Europe and China.
Riverside@reddthat.com 15 hours ago
People love to criticize the marketplace of ideas and sure it’s imperfect… but what’s he alternative?
Ban Zionists and Nazis and Fascist from all aspects of the public sphere.
LibertyLizard@slrpnk.net 10 hours ago
Sure, if you have total power over the media ecosystem. But we don’t.
So the question has to be asked–are you banning Zionism from the public square or simply exiling anti Zionism into a small echo-chamber where no one will hear it anymore and Zionism will go unchallenged? This is my problem with this approach.
TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world 1 day ago
You can’t change the mind of someone you don’t have access to.
Riverside@reddthat.com 15 hours ago
Yes, that’s the idea, making sure that Zionists don’t have access to anyone.
TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world 10 hours ago
humble_boatsman@sh.itjust.works 23 hours ago
Does no one here understand the younger generations access to ideas? I think the idea that every one claims of creating echo chambers is not an effective one. The law of diminishing returns (as a business term) states that all else held equal an increase in production( or the free debate or posting of opinions) will not produce more profit after a certain point ( or the changing of others opinions) . When it comes to people posting and espousing for state sponsored genocide I think we have hit the top of that curve. If you stop the flow of that information you are not creating echo chambers but more effectively stopping the spread of bullshit and hate. They have Xhitter. Fucking ban this genocidal shit every chance you get, either foundationally or personally. I dont get a whiff of this on shitjust works because I dont engage with it.
TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world 23 hours ago
Feels an awful lot like “won’t somebody think of the children?”
All that means is you’ve closed your eyes to the world around you. It doesn’t mean that the world has changed. Avoidance doesn’t help. It actually makes things worse because you cede the moral and intellectual territory.
Alternatively, you can actually take the fight to people instead of hiding from problems. And as far as what the younger generation sees, if you aren’t providing arguments against fascism, against zionism, who is going to win that mind?
thirdworldistWMD@lemmy.zip 22 hours ago
No one is hiding from problems, but flowers do not grow in a battlefield. They’re trampled. You need to have safe retreat, a place to teach, cultivate and grow. Inclusion means ensuring safe harbor through the exclusion of bad actors. I’m here now in the trench, but I do not have to live in the trench. Don’t you get that? I have a place to return to, a place to regroup, discuss, laugh, be marry in dark times. What you’re advocating for is a horizonless battlefield, with no end in sight. An endless sea of torment and combat with no safe harbor. And for what? “The market place of ideas’”? What a joke. What a dated and dead concept.
This idea applies to these modes of communication as well. The ideological expression of an instance is at it’s core the ideological view of it’s administration in the abstract. There is no equal footing. Zionist instances will ban you on Zionist grounds. Creating an “inclusive” space for Zionists and their cohort. You can not “win” a debate in their realm as they always have the administration on their side.
The same is true for db0. This motion is simply the negation of the contradiction between wanting to maintain an inclusive and welcoming space for Palestinians, anti-zionists of all stripes, Muslim and Arab peoples; and the open federation model of activitypub.
The people who want to get into the trenches will. For those who don’t, db0 is finally a safe harbor for those listed above. Free from having their identities, their lives, their humanity debated for the sake of the free market of ideas.
humble_boatsman@sh.itjust.works 22 hours ago
Its not won’t somebody think of the children… Its get this shit out of their face. Block it. Thats the beauty of the fediverse.
The initial point was that younger generations feed off engagements. You block the conversation and it doesn’t exist. Its not a matter of closing your eyes to the world. Its closing the gates to the exact statement I made. Does no one understand how the younger generation get the information? Engagement. Was the answer. Failure to allow a platform will stop the spread of the misinformation in the first place.
‘Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference’.