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Nazi bar

I never liked this stupid idea. If anti-Nazis start to hang out at a bar, does it become an anti-Nazi bar? What about both Nazis & anti-Nazis: who wins? It seems you privilege the presence of Nazis in deciding the kind of bar it is with no chance of anyone else showing up to decide the kind of bar they make it with their mere presence. You privilege Nazis.

I don’t see anyone applying this logic to the wider web where we have Nazi sites: no one calls the web a Nazi bar. Or the world for that matter. Is your language a Nazi bar since some Nazis speak it? Yet some people can regularly use x.com without ever running into Nazis just like the web or the world. Nazi bar is classic bad company fallacy.

The most pernicious effect of this fallacy is it just surrenders entire platforms to Nazis & pretends retreating to ideological bubbles is morally virtuous. By immaturely prioritizing comforting & unchallenging environments of social validation & self-righteousness maintained by silencing opposition over environments of unfettered public discourse that challenge us to develop intellectual depth & skill to actually debate serious disagreements, we erode critical thought, limit self-reflection & growth, and allow radicalization to propagate unchecked by exposure to deradicalizing influences & more intelligent perspectives. We promote backslides into repressive extremism by being cowardly ninnies unwilling to counter words with reason & public opinion. Have some conviction to stand up for your morality where it matters.

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michaelmrose@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
What is being communicated is that being a nazi is so inherently abhorrant that its unsafe to express support for nazism in decent places. A nazi may exist in such places but they do so quietly because they risk at minimum getting tossed out.

Places where its ok to be a nazi loudly end up attracting more because such places are rare and thus attract a disproportionate number of such folks.

These folks make decent folks not want to come. Now you have a Nazi bar.

From a broader social standpoint, people adjudge ideas I’m part based on how acceptable they seem to be by their peers.

Seeing nornal communication alongside nazism reenforces the perceived normalcy of these abhorrent ideas.

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Passerby6497@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

I never liked this stupid idea.

The ‘stupid idea’ that people don’t want to be around Nazis? 🤔

If anti-Nazis start to hang out at a bar, does it become an anti-Nazi bar?

Muh both sides.

What about both Nazis & anti-Nazis: who wins? It seems you privilege the presence of Nazis in deciding the kind of bar it is with no chance of anyone else showing up to decide the kind of bar they make it with their mere presence. You privilege Nazis

Do I really have to explain to you why Nazis coming into a bar is different than anti-nazis coming into a bar to normal people? If so, I’ll have to go break out the big box of Crayola for you.

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- lmmarsano@lemmynsfw.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago
  Arguing is easy when you ignore everything you’re responding to.
  
  people don’t want to be around Nazis? 🤔
  
  Already answered with
  
  Yet some people can regularly use x.com without ever running into Nazis just like the web or the world.
  
  Maybe you need to stop speaking a Nazi bar language, abandon the Nazi bar web, or leave the Nazi bar world. Everything is tainted. This is just bad company fallacy mentioned before.
  
  Do I really have to explain to you why Nazis coming into a bar is different than anti-nazis coming into a bar to normal people? If so, I’ll have to go break out the big box of Crayola for you.
  
  You do that: it seems you need to sate your hunger for crayons. Explain what you’re doing on the web or in the world.
  
  I’d rather see the platform user count fall and it fail vs giving them money and traffic.
  
  Musk is a trillionaire with fuck you money. He bought the platform at a loss while it was only making losses. It’s probably still making losses. I doubt it’s making any money. Using it while blocking ads (which I’ve never seen) might increase losses.
  
  All you’re defending is acting morally superior by judging the people who don’t cower off as going to a “Nazi bar” when really you’re not morally superior at all: you’re giving up by failing to stand by your convictions & letting the extremists increasingly sway public discourse on a popular platform. It’s a load of shit.
  
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  - Passerby6497@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago
    
    Arguing is easy when you ignore everything you’re responding to.
    
    Only the stupid parts of arguments, sorry
    
    Yet some people can regularly use x.com without ever running into Nazis just like the web or the world.
    
    ‘some people see it so it’s not a bit deal’ is a fucking moronic argument, barely worth responding to.
    
    Maybe you need to stop speaking a Nazi bar language, abandon the Nazi bar web, or leave the Nazi bar world. Everything is tainted. This is just bad company fallacy mentioned before.
    
    Much like this. Everything you mentioned is actually meaningful or useful. Twitter isn’t. Your argument is literally the Reductio ad absurdum fallacy.
    
    You do that: it seems you need to sate your hunger for crayons.
    
    People don’t like Nazis, people who support/defend Nazis, or platforms where Nazis are protected and promoted.
    
    Explain what you’re doing on the web or in the world.
    
    The same moronic argument as before.
    
    Musk is a hundred billionaire with fuck you money. He bought the platform at a loss while it was only making losses. It’s probably still making losses. I doubt it’s making any money. Using it while blocking ads (which I’ve never seen) might increase losses.
    
    And your argument is to support his failing platform.
    
    Calling some communication system a Nazi bar as soon as Nazis aren’t silenced is just a subjective judgement.
    
    Promoted by the platform is the same as not silencing them, clearly.
    
    All you’re defending is acting morally superior by judging the people who don’t cower off as going to a “Nazi bar”
    
    No, I’m looking down on you for defending your use of a failing platform that’s gone wildly against normal people and their craziness is only being propped up by inertia and you’re doing everything you can do to cover for your choice.
    
    when really you’re not morally superior at all: you’re giving up by failing to stand by your convictions & letting the extremists increasingly sway public discourse on a popular platform. It’s a load of shit.
    
    Or I’m choosing not promote a far right site bought by a billionaire with the express purpose of using the existing user base to spread far right propaganda, limit the ability of people to see the heinous shit people post unless they make an account, and generally upset the applecart.
    
    But you’re definitely soooooooooo much better because you choose to hang on the Nazi site willingly and twist yourself up in a pretzel to justify your choice.
    
    Cry more about my choice in words though, I’m sure you’ll come up with some other idiotic reason why your choice to support a Nazi billionaire who brought out MechaHitler in response to ‘woke’ AI is the real moral choice.
    
    Don’t care one way or the other, I’m not bothering with you any longer. 🤡🤡🤡
    
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BearGun@ttrpg.network ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago
It’s not a nazi bar because there is the occasional nazi in it. It’s a nazi bar because it’s led by a nazi, applies nazi standards and moderation, and therefore attracts nazis.

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- lmmarsano@lemmynsfw.com ⁨1⁩ ⁨day⁩ ago
  That owner is 1 person. This Nazi bar argument does nothing for the multitude of people left behind in an increasingly right-wing bubble because the “morally righteous” are too stuck-up or cowardly to make a stand with rational debate where it’s needed.
  
  If Nazi standards & moderation means less policing of hate speech, we don’t get that in the public square, either, yet the public is quite capable denouncing & arguing against it there. Actual Nazis in Nazi regalia have marched & spoken there. Is the public square a Nazi bar? Moderation simply isn’t needed for better voices to prevail.
  
  Moreover, there are plenty of anti-Nazis there who stay to defend morality. Much like the rest of the world, there is also much going on there that isn’t Nazi-related. Nazi bar is just a rationalization for cowards to surrender & seek comfort, because when the immoral aren’t silenced, they aren’t willing to seriously challenge immorality where it matters.
  
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