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Comment on Screw it, I’m installing Linux

Lost_My_Mind@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

I don’t see them as trolls. I’ve been on ZorinOS for about a year now. I hate it because I don’t know how to do anything, but I’m not smart enough to learn terminal.

Flatpaks are the answer to installation. But any problem I have, I google, and every result starts the same way.

"Ok, Step 1, open terminal

NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

I have a 100% rate of those solutions not working for me. And the reason is simple. Those solutions assume you know how to use linux. So when you copy and paste their terminal commands, and your terminal responds with error: dependancies not found, YOU know how to fix that error and it works for you. But for most regular people, thats the end of that. Problem not solved. Problem remains a problem FOREVER.

No, seriously. I have a usb recovery stick that allows me to backup/restore my hard drive exactly how it is. Anytime I have to use terminal I ALWAYS make a backup of my hard drive first. Which takes 4 hours. And the reason for that is, when I inevitably fuck something up in terminal, and the whole OS crashes, and refuses to boot, I have a backup. It takes nearly 20 hours to restore the image, but it works. But whatever problem I was trying to solve remains.

Imagine if that were your linux experience. Windows spies on you. They have enshitification out the ass. But it works for the masses without technical knowledge.

The other issue is that businesses use windows. So most people are firmiliar with windows. So all the popular programs are on windows. Linux has a way to emulate windows programs, but its hard to get working, and sometimes just DOESN’T work.

If linux had every single program windows has, 100% as a flatpak, it would do wonders for install rate…for about a year.

Once people install the programs, they’ll at some point run into an issue. On windows you solve the problem 99% of the time by restarting. On linux, that hasn’t fixed any of my problems once.

These people aren’t trolls. They just have a different opinion than you from a different perspective.

Next time you have an issue in linux, any issue, regardless of how small, I want you to turn off your computer for 4 hours. Then turn it back on for 5 minutes. Then off again for 20 hours. Don’t solve the issue. I know YOU can solve the issue in 30 seconds, but don’t. After the 24 hours no computer use, just live with the problem for the rest of your life.

Yeah, that doesn’t sound fun, does it? Sounds like a reason to have a sour experience. Suddenly they don’t seem like trolls.

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Mangoguana@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
That command terminal thing is so real. When it works, its magic. When it doesn’t work, you just messed with forces you didn’t understand and are already forced into chancing a repair and maybe make the problem worst or getting back to the original one! (Very discouraging if you are just trying to get work done, especially for non techies)

I think the problem with linux users is that they can’t imagine that the appeal for most people who want to use an OS is to make something happen in the “real world” with a top level piece of software, like you want to draw a cute cat on the screen not learn how the compositor draws the pixels to different resolution screens WHEN the monitor model is a use case supported scenario.

The objective is to use the computer as a tool NOW for a SPECIFIC thing without diving into the inner guts of the machine for some people, and that’s honestly fine.

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- __hetz@sh.itjust.works ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Some of us are old enough to remember when “that command terminal thing” was computing. Now there’s something about text on a black screen that seems to make people’s eyes glaze over and their brains turn off today. You’d think they were being asked to decipher the Matrix. Too many generations removed I suppose.
  
  The reality is I’m definitely not figuring out how my compositor works, almost never touching system files, infrequently scripting, and almost always using “a tool NOW for a SPECIFIC thing.” I’m not a tech luddite. Modern computing is shiny and awesome. You want graphical tools for graphical tasks. But there are so many excellent specific-purpose CLI tools, typically included by default across nearly every distro, that make so much more sense to use over a GUI. Maybe not always but most of the time.
  
  Simple example, damned if I’m gonna open a file browser, navigate to my downloads directory, right click - Cut (or Ctrl X), navigate to another directory, paste, then right click - Rename. Not when I can just open a terminal (realistically, I always have it open) and mv ~/downloads/kewlwallpapers_abstract_dark_blah_blah.jpg ~/pics/wallpaper/abstract_003.jpg Especially when tab completion means I just have to type a partial path or filename and slap Tab to fill in the rest. It’s just so quick.
  
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ogeist@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
By the way you write I now you are smart enough to learn the terminal and you should not fear it, since you are starting with linux it is expected that you will make errors and that is ok. Linux is yours to do and undo.

One of the reasons why Mac was able to take some market share from Windows is that all their computers are the same regardless of the needs of the user, so trouble shooting is easy as all are the same.

Your full backup strategy is kinda overkill, also tells me your are more than capable of learning the terminal btw, you should just back up the critical data then reinstalling/fixing your installation will take the same amount of time for backing your full drive. There are forums to ask for help in linux and there are a lot of us that try to help brother/sister in need. Also timeshift might be easier faster than the usb thing.

I do not know Zorin OS but there are other flavors of Linux that might be better for you, maybe something atomic like Bazzite which is immutable so you can’t fuck it up. One distro does not represent all.

About your Windows for the masses comment, every one of us linux users started with Windows because that’s what the computers came with, Microsoft paid a lot for that to happen, and the users got used to Windows and got used to its quirks. That is in itself technical knowledge, so there are no computer users “without technical knowledge”

About the restarting the computer to solve issues comment. That’s just not true, my work Windows computer started blue screening with no reason, no amount of restarting fixed that.

Now to the trolls, they are trolls, your are giving a proper argument for your use case and I respect you for that because you are giving linux a try. The trolls im referring to are the ones shitting on linux without even trying it or just calling people names because they dare to try something different.

About your comment for living with issues with my setup forever as a non-techy user reminded me of the 10s of toolbars my aunt had in her computer and complained when I removed them because she had gotten so used to them.

Do not fear the terminal even Windows was once DOS, install and try all the distros you can they are FREE, there are a lot of flavors for different needs.

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__hetz@sh.itjust.works ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

I hate it because I don’t know how to do anything Some examples of what you’ve been unable to accomplish might add clarity.

but I’m not smart enough to learn terminal Bull. Shit. You’re just not used to it and, even without picking up any knowledge of shell scripting, you’re only a man somecommand away from understanding what specific command line programs do. somecommand --flag --another-flag /home/me/thing typically isn’t much different from opening some GUI app on Windows, ticking two boxes, opening the file picker and selecting C:\users\me\thing then clicking a button.

All that said, now we really need examples because there’s probably no need for you to be messing with the terminal to begin with. At least not if you aren’t doing anything outside basic computing like web browsing, chat, productivity tasks and such. So what are you trying to do in the terminal that the OS failed to provide a GUI for?

Flatpaks… NOOOOO… I haven’t used Zorin but flatpaks are enabled by default if I understand. Yes, you can install them via the command line but it looks like you could just open the built in software center and search for whatever it is you want. The only exception I can imagine is if you’re trying to install from a source other than whatever Zorin uses by default (Flathub, I would guess).

dependencies not found With Flatpaks? Wat? With some other command? Context, please.

Anytime I have to use terminal I ALWAYS make a backup You’re competent enough to image and restore your drive but not stay out of trouble in your OS? You presumably had to learn whatever software, and the underlying concepts, you’re using for that. Clonezilla, Rescuezilla, Macrium Reflect, etc all exist to make it easier but you’ve gotta know what an “image” is, what it means create it and subsequently write it onto a drive. How to identify the correct drive so you’re not wiping out something unintentionally.

So, are you not spending even a few minutes to check if the code snippets you’re pasting are applicable to your specific distribution? At least skimming the man page for the commands you try to run? Are you assuming “it’s all just Linux, right?” and that there isn’t nuance between distributions? Running shell commands you don’t understand is like running whatever backup solution you’re using without understanding it - just blindly clicking buttons and maybe you get a backup or maybe you format a drive and lose decades of family photos, your research paper draft, and whatever else. And if a fuckup costs me a literal day of my life in restoration time, I’m making it a point to use that time to figure out why so I hopefully don’t repeat the process in the future.

There’s little substance in your complaints and I’m left just so genuinely confused. In my head I’m imagining a walking talking XY Problem. Some specific examples of what you were trying to achieve or the snippets you were blindly pasting might shed some light but, left to guess, your actions sound akin to gamer kids running random batch scripts claiming to tweak power settings or whatever else in order to eke out a few extra FPS. Windows isn’t going to protect anyone who treats it the same way you have seemingly treated Linux.

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captain_aggravated@sh.itjust.works ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
You can learn how to use the terminal. You have demonstrated the ability to compose a coherent sentence, you can learn.

Every terminal command is a program. Typing a “command” into the terminal is just typing the name of a program. If you type firefox, Firefox launches. If it’s installed, we’ll come back to that. Anything else in the “command” like if you see letters or words after a dash, something like ls -a is an option, it’s like ticking a box in a dialog window, but on the front end. I recommend spinning up a virtual machine or getting a Raspberry Pi or something you don’t care about, and following some tutorials. Learn how to move around the file system, install software, run some utilities.

About that “if it’s installed” part. You mentioned you run Zorin. Zorin is what I call a Trendy Distro Of The Month. I’ve been using Linux for twelve years now, this hasn’t stopped yet. There’s the mainstays like Debian, Ubuntu, Mint, Red Hat, Fedora, Arch, OpenSuSe, there’s the niche special purpose things like Kali and TAILS and Puppy and Tiny, and then there’s the hundreds of quadrillions of “We took Ubuntu, put Steam on it by default, swapped SystemD for whatever.rs, swapped Firefox for Chromium and did a half-assed job at theming and extending Gnome that’s going to break every time they push an update.”

PeppermintOS, ZorinOS, ElementaryOS, Pop!_OS, Garuda, Nobara, Endeavor, Manjaro, Bazzite, Cachy, hundreds of others, are basically the same software in some slightly mutated permutation that most veterans aren’t familiar with. Invariably the veterans first hear about them from noobs who went looking for a distro that is “good for gaming” or “easy for beginners” and because SEO they find the Trendy Distro Of The Month. Which always offers some little gimmick that ultimately doesn’t matter. The process of getting a Bazzite ISO is taking a little Cosmo quiz about what you’re going to do, but then the installer is really borked compared to Mint or even Fedora.

A lot of instructions are written with Ubuntu or sometimes Fedora in mind, and then you pick a distro that differs from those, and then bitch that instructions don’t work.

Also, you need to upgrade your backup hardware if it takes 20 hours to image a drive. That should take minutes.

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cows_are_underrated@feddit.org ⁨4⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
Can’t speak for you, but trouble shooting, even if you dont know what you do, is at least in my experience way easier. A terminal command does the exact same thing, no matter on which system (OK, there are differences like package manager, but you get what mean) and no matter when. On Windows you get 10 screenshots of a UI that has changed 10 times since the creation of the guide and no or a completely useless error message if something does not work. As long as you are not trying to debug big ass problems that affect core components of your system (bootloader, drives, stuff with the kernel) it is in fact quite hard to fuck up your entire system (it can happen with Updates on Arch, but this is usually quite rare). As long as you are not touching anything else except your /home directory you should not be able to break your entire system. Also if you are still scared of losing date, there are ways of creating system snapshots (backups). Backing up your home directory is enough because this means, that all the files you use daily are backed up.

Since you mentioned dependencies, here’s a quick answer to what this means. There are a shit ton of programming libraries. A library has the use case, that a developer does not have to reinvent the wheel every time they want to do something. You dont want to write a complete library for GUIs every time, but instead use standardised well maintained and documented libraries. Since Programms use these they depend on the user having this library (or alternatively Programms) installed. This is called a dependency. In most cases dependency errors mean, that an expected library is not installed. In this case simply copy the name, and search “install name Linux (or your Distros)” and you are almost guaranteed to find a tutorial for installing it.

My best tip is, that you take the time to learn the basics of Linux. What is a package manager and which one does my system use, how do I navigate directories, how do I create and delete files, how do I edit files. How do I copy or move files. If you know the basics of these things you know most of the stuff you need to know to understand what you are doing. If you want to read more about a specific command you can also always refer to the man page of said command. For this simply type in man “command name” (e.G. “man cd” this gives you the basic infos about the CD command (used for navigating directorys))

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