Comment on She strongly disagrees

• BlameTheAntifa@lemmy.world ⁨15⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

  This is the original Koine per the NA28 for 1 Timothy.

  Βούλομαι οὖν προσεύχεσθαι τοὺς ἄνδρας ἐν παντὶ τόπῳ, ἐπαίροντας ὁσίους χεῖρας χωρὶς ὀργῆς καὶ διαλογισμοῦ. ὡσαύτως καὶ γυναῖκας ἐν καταστολῇ κοσμίῳ μετὰ αἰδοῦς καὶ σωφροσύνης κοσμεῖν ἑαυτάς, μὴ ἐν πλέγμασιν καὶ χρυσίῳ ἢ μαργαρίταις ἢ ἱματισμῷ πολυτελεῖ, ἀλλ’ ὃ πρέπει γυναιξὶν ἐπαγγελλομέναις θεοσέβειαν, δι’ ἔργων ἀγαθῶν. γυνὴ ἐν ἡσυχίᾳ μανθανέτω ἐν πάσῃ ὑποταγῇ· διδάσκειν δὲ γυναικὶ οὐκ ἐπιτρέπω, οὐδὲ αὐθεντεῖν ἀνδρός, ἀλλ’ εἶναι ἐν ἡσυχίᾳ.

  Paul wrote to the various movements about their unique challenges and how they should approach them. The Koine is dripping with meaning that is not easily translated to English.

  This is how most English speakers - who have no knowledge or experience with the cultures being written about or the Koine language they were written in - read their rubbish translations. This is also clearly you.

  Men need to be praying all the time, and when they pray they need to raise their hands up and do it without fuss. I want the women to cover themselves up, not wearing jewelry or caring for themselves, but serving on others, which is what God wants. Women need to shut up and do what they’re told. I will not tolerate a woman being a teacher or having any authority over a man, she must shut the hell up, because God created Adam first. Eve came second.

  But language is funny, because it’s meant to convey meaning through ideas, not approximations of words with zero thought to origin or target context. Because I can read Koine and history is one of my ‘tisms, this is what it actually SAYS.

  Whenever the men lift up their hands to address God, I want their hands to be clean, not soiled with resentment or quarrel. In the same way, women need to present themselves reasonably - with dignity and self-discipline. Not with extravagant hairstyles, golden jewelry, expensive pearls, or decadent clothes, but in alignment with the values of a woman who claims to serve God: by setting a good example in how they live and behave. Let them learn, but they must be calm and composed students. I will not give my permission for a woman to seize control of teaching from a man. They must conduct themselves peacefully.

  This builds directly on a couple paragraphs earlier, which laments the destabilizing influence of Ephesus’ pagan culture on the Christian movement there. Men were bitter and women were powerful and ambitious, and people who had no idea what they were talking about were trying to seize positions of authority in this new Christian sect.

  τὸ δὲ τέλος τῆς παραγγελίας ἐστὶν ἀγάπη ἐκ καθαρᾶς καρδίας καὶ συνειδήσεως ἀγαθῆς καὶ πίστεως ἀνυποκρίτου, ὧν τινες ἀστοχήσαντες ἐξετράπησαν εἰς ματαιολογίαν, θέλοντες εἶναι νομοδιδάσκαλοι, μὴ νοοῦντες μήτε ἃ λέγουσιν μήτε περὶ τίνων διαβεβαιοῦνται.

  What does that say? Well, resist the urge to assume that all self-important blowhards are always men and remember what I said about Ephesus being the seat of the matriarchal Artemis cult.

  The purpose of our mission is love - love from a pure heart, a sense of integrity, and genuine commitment. But some of you have lost sight of this mission and wandered off to blow self-important wind. They have ambitions to be esteemed teachers, but despite their projected confidence they have no idea what they are talking about.

  Interesting. That sounds familiar, doesn’t it?

  source

  • Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world ⁨11⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

    Whenever the men lift up their hands to address God, I want their hands to be clean, not soiled with resentment or quarrel. In the same way, women need to present themselves reasonably - with dignity and self-discipline. Not with extravagant hairstyles, golden jewelry, expensive pearls, or decadent clothes, but in alignment with the values of a woman who claims to serve God: by setting a good example in how they live and behave. Let them learn, but they must be calm and composed students. I will not give my permission for a woman to seize control of teaching from a man. They must conduct themselves peacefully. Remember the story of Adam and Eve. Adam, who came first, was not deceived, but Eve, who came later, was tricked into doing wrong.

    You believe this is the correct translation yet it doesn’t change the problem at all.

    “women need to present themselves reasonably - with dignity and self-discipline. Not with extravagant hairstyles, golden jewelry, expensive pearls, or decadent clothes, but in alignment with the values of a woman who claims to serve God:”

    Where is the admonishment that men should do the same?

    remember what I said about Ephesus being the seat of the matriarchal Artemis cult.

    " I will not give my permission for a woman to seize control of teaching from a man.

    Even if the problem is that he is talking about the Cult of Artemis, it cannot be an admonishment that ONLY WOMEN do not have permission. There is no mention that men or women shouldn’t follow pagan religions. It is only an admonishment against women. As such there is no textual support that this was anti pagan rhetoric.

    Again Paul says that he doesn’t support women to seize control of teaching. It therefore cannot be about the cult of Artemis.

    source

    • BlameTheAntifa@lemmy.world ⁨8⁩ ⁨hours⁩ ago

      Where is the admonishment that men should do the same? Ephesus is not a patriarchal society. You are still assuming a culture and context that is equivalent to your own modern experience. Women are a privileged class in 200 CE, and had been for hundreds of years. Like all privileged classes in all of human history, they are the group that are most likely to try to seize authority for themselves. Parading ostentatious wealth in the form of fancy hair, jewelry, and expensive clothes was not a trait of Ephesian men, but Ephesian women.

      Also “a woman” and “a man” does not mean “every woman” or “every man”, or even “any woman” or “any man.” It is a targeted reference to the specific issue that Timothy was dealing with in Ephesus… Artemis adherents trying to take control of the fledgling christian cult, even though they don’t know the first thing about them or their doctrine. The Koine offers a lot of clear meaning and intent that is very difficult to convey in either English or terms that are understandable to a modern person with no historical frame of reference.

      What Paul is saying is “If women want to teach, they first need to learn. If they want to learn, they need to stop flaunting their wealth, stop behaving like entitled jerks, and start treating teachers with respect — who are men — instead of trying to usurp their positions. We aren’t doing this for clout, but to improve everyone’s lives. Those who haven’t learned the rules are going to make terrible mistakes.”

      source

      • Blue_Morpho@lemmy.world ⁨1⁩ ⁨hour⁩ ago

        Ephesus is not a patriarchal society

        Outside of priestesses, it was a patriarchal society. Greece had priestesses too. The existence of a priestess doesn’t make a patriarchal society.

        Prohibitions against dressing fancy for women and only women has nothing to do with combatting paganism. Men participated in the cult of Artemis yet Paul said nothing about restricting men. Paul does not mention paganism nor heresy.

        Paul did not make those proscription just for Timothy. He said “I”. Your version did not show any mistranslation.

        Corinthians also says woman should not speak in church in so it cannot be a special case only for Timothy.

        source