Comment on The Sodium-Ion Battery Revolution Has Started
khannie@lemmy.world 2 days ago
For anyone wondering what “10,000 lifetime cycles” means, it’s full charge / discharge to the point that the batteries are at 80% of original capacity so 10,000 is to me an absolutely incredible number.
A typical phone battery is rated for about 500 (you can massively improve this by not charging it beyond 80%).
I don’t know if the same applies to sodium batteries, early indicators are that they are less sensitive to depth of discharge as a degradation driver.
Still, the expected lifetime is going to be at least between 4-8 times NCM (traditional li-ion), which is massive.
Definitely incredible but I still feel like people’s excitement is misdirected.
A typical phone battery is rated for about 500 (you can massively improve this by not charging it beyond 80%).
This 80% thing is incredibly simplified and not even always accurate. Personally I charge to about 95% and my phone batteries remain at 98-100% condition after 2 years of everyday use.
Limiting yourself to 80% doesn’t really make sense. You’re losing 20% capacity instantly, instead of losing it slowly over a few years. To be fair, a lot of people treat their devices so poorly that they may hit the 80% in less than 12 months, so I guess there’s that.
I keep my car charged to 80% to help with battery degradation, and here’s why:
Most days, I don’t use more than 30% of my battery capacity (roughly 75 miles/120km). Even that’s high. I don’t care if that means I go from 100%->70% or 80%-50% when I’ll charge back up again overnight
It’s not a permanent setting! If I do go on a longer trip, I’ll bring it back up to 100% and not sweat it!
From what I’ve heard, charging beyond 80% increases the degradation rate, meaning time spent at that level is an important part of the equation. If I keep my phone plugged in overnight and at my desk, I have a lot of time at full charge that I’m not really using, but if I know I’m flying that day or running errands all day I can pop it up to 100% and it will be a non-degraded 100%
I’ve had my S20 far longer than my car and never did limit its charge. It’s fine for me, but the battery is sure showing its age.
I don’t see this as a valid comparison.
Maybe user replaceable phone batteries are making a comeback, but with the way my phone is pretty much sealed up I wouldn’t trust myself to not break it. I’d also be leery of a third-party replacement lithium battery of unknown quality (let’s be honest, that’s what you’ll probably end up with) charging right next to my head while I sleep. Saying that as someone whose friend had a lithium battery fire with her laptop.
Yeah, a friend of mine made a similar argument and I hear it. Personally I’m always right beside a fast charger so it’s not an issue for me.
My phone has an option to auto-stop charging at 80% so I use that. I will occasionally charge it to 100% but like maybe once a month. TBH if it had an option to stop at 90% I’d probably use that as a middle ground (my steam deck does and I use 90% with it). I got 5 years out of my last phone and I’m 3 years into the current one and hoping to get many more out of it.
I think that fast charging is almost as damaging as full cycles.
OnePlus claim it’s not and a quick search does back that up. For the one specific to my phone they move a chunk of the work off the device (reducing heat on the phone) and onto the charger. It’ll still charge normally with any USB charger but it gets much hotter and is much slower compared to the OnePlus “warp” charge.
10,000 lifetime cycles
so, 30 years if you charge/discharge it once daily?
Yes.
No, 28.0707664021 years
80? Shit, I have my phone set at 85…
It’s not a dead set value. The word you can do is keep charging it way past 100%
Overspark@piefed.social 2 days ago
This also means that, when you buy a car with say a 500 km range, that the battery will last for 10,000 x 500 = 5 million kms. That is an absolutely insane number compared to cars that are on the road right now. And one you will obviously only reach if the rest of the car can keep up. EVs are already doing well compared to ICE cars in this regard, but this is almost an order of magnitude larger than the current status quo.
frezik@lemmy.blahaj.zone 2 days ago
Also, considering that modern cars are considered totaled by basically any accident, it’s not going to be the limiting factor on the car’s lifetime. It’s mostly a talking point by ICE advocates who stealthily imply million km cars are typical.
boonhet@sopuli.xyz 2 days ago
Million km cars may not be typical, but it’s not an incredibly difficult number to reach with an ICE. But my issue here has always been the whole getting a bomb dropped on you issue of BEVs. The batteries have gotten better over time, but they can still fail fairly early sometimes and then it costs more to replace than the residual value of the vehicle. Whereas a poor person with skills can rebuild an internal combustion engine for a reasonable amount of money because it’s possible to offset the labor into a time cost instead of money. Plus you can get a junkyard engine for cheap and go another 100k km or maybe way more if you’re lucky.
It’s a second, third or tenth owner problem which is why a lot of people overlook it.
Now the extra charge cycles of the sodium battery compared to lithium are already a significant step in making this a non-issue, but the true progress is in the fact that they’re cheaper, so out of warranty battery replacements might start making financial sense compared to parting out a car after only 10 years due to replacement costs.
AA5B@lemmy.world 1 day ago
Aside from the OG Nissan Leaf with passive cooling, this really seems like more of a scare tactic than an actual issue.
I don’t know about all EVs, but assuming they’re similar to mine:
I’m sure it happens that a few people need to replace the battery but they tend to last beyond the full expected lifetime of most cars and the usual failure mode is to continue working with less range
DarkAri@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 day ago
It’s not so cheap anymore, you need thousands of dollars worth of tools and also parts if you want to replace parts but even the gasket sets and stuff are hundreds of dollars.
Overspark@piefed.social 2 days ago
Which is stupid, because current batteries already last way longer than most ICE cars. IMHO the depreciation is mostly because newer EV’s are still getting better at such a rapid pace, not because second-hand EV’s aren’t great cars (with a few notable exceptions, such as 1st gen Nissan Leafs, which didn’t have active battery cooling). I drive a 2016 EV and it’s still pretty much as it was when new, battery included.