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Comment on Hollow Knight: Silksong Sparks Debate About Difficulty and Boss Runbacks

Not putting checkpoints close to boss fights is not difficulty.

You're pointing a finger at the Soulslike genre here, not only HK. Some games may abandon it, but this is common enough to be called a genre stable.

Just like the "hit hit, dodge/parry, hit hit" combat pattern, losing/recovering currency, enemies respawning on bonfire use… etc.

I think this whole genre is wack, TBH. I don't even find it difficult, I just think what they test is perseverance in the face of misery and tediousness, which's a bizarre thing to test in a video game. It's almost as if it's straight up telling you: this is a serious video game, no room for fun here.

Meanwhile, Ninja Gaiden proved you can simultaneously have extreme difficulty AND fun like one million years ago.

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CileTheSane@lemmy.ca ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

You’re pointing a finger at the Soulslike genre here, not only HK

I played some Elden Ring and as I recall there were check points next to the bosses.

Ender’s Lilies is a metroidvania listed as a soulslike and always has a check point next to the boss room (highly recommend it btw).

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- mohab@piefed.social ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  
  You're pointing a finger at the Soulslike genre here, not only HK. Some games may abandon it, but this is common enough to be called a genre stable.
  
  You should try Salt and Sanctuary, Sekiro, Bloodborne, The Surge, Lords of the Fallen, or Lies of P—all had boss runbacks, and that's ignoring HK, Silksong, and the original Souls games.
  
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  - CileTheSane@lemmy.ca ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Apparently I shouldn’t. But if there’s a list of soulslike games that do it, and a list of soulslike games that don’t, then it is not in fact true for the genre and is instead true for specific games.
    
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aesthelete@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago

I think this whole genre is wack, TBH.

Agreed. I’m not sure why I would waste my time with shit like this when it’s just objectively not fun for me to play.

Different strokes for different folks, so if you like it more power to you, but I’d rather play games that are fun to play for me.

I only have a certain amount of time to play video games, and if I can’t make any progress at all in an hour or two, why would I bother continuing when an hour or two is usually all I have in a day to play your game?

I’ve decided not to bother picking up silksong because I found HK tedious, frustrating, and unrewarding.

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- Cybersteel@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  People who enjoy such games are clearly masochist who don’t know what a good game is if it hit them in the face. Idk why these sorts of “gamers” even exist. I long for the halcyon era where good stuff like Mario, Zelda and Sonic were the staples of hardcore gamers.
  
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Feyd@programming.dev ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
It’s true that I’d prefer it in no games, but it’s also less frustrating in straight soulslikes. The problem with HK is that it is a synthesis of metroidvania and soulslikes in the most time-disrespecting ways possible. Really most of my frustrations are with map design, and then they add not getting maps until you find the map guy (in samey environments I can’t remember well enough without a map).

What made me put it down was playing for an hour going through multiple zones without finding either a map guy or a bench somehow then dying. I’m pretty sure just being able to see the map would have been enough to keep me playing.

For this new fangled soulsvania genre there are numerous better entries that I thoroughly enjoyed. Ender Lilies and Blasphemus are the first 2 that come to mind.

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- Beardbuster@lemmy.world ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  Personally I think we’d all be better off not even calling them Soulslikes, for this very reason. Full-blown Soulslikes have so many more nuances and systems that add to the experience.
  
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  - Prathas@lemmy.zip ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
    Yeah, huh, apparently HK is tagged on Steam as a Souls-like, but I disagree… just brutal difficulty in a melee-heavy game isn’t enough to merit that badge, but oh, well.
    
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Coelacanth@feddit.nu ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
To be fair Ninja Gaiden Black* did also have boss runbacks. It’s one of a handful of small complaints I have about what is otherwise a very close to perfect game (Chapter 9 in the military base being one of the others).

But NG2 did have boss checkpoints, yes, and was much better for it. Even the notoriously player-challenging Itagaki realised after one game that boss runbacks sucked, and this was in 2008 - Demon Souls wasn’t even out.

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- mohab@piefed.social ⁨6⁩ ⁨months⁩ ago
  I was mostly thinking of NG2, yes. I enjoyed NGB, but NG2 is the only one I replay, and it's mostly what I'm thinking of when I bring up Ninja Gaiden.
  
  We can even go back further and bring up Bayonetta (2007), God Hand (2006), or even DMC 3 (2005) All are tough as nails, but super fun.
  
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