I mean, they are someone’s proxy.
Comment on A woman tried to call her mom in Iran. A robotic voice answered the phone
AES_Enjoyer@reddthat.com 5 weeks agoWhat proxy? Israel bombed Iran unprovoked directly, no proxy there.
outhouseperilous@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 weeks ago
SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca 5 weeks ago
Is Iran responsible for what Hamas does with the weapons and munitions they supply them?
Is the US responsible for what Israel does with the weapons and munitions they supply them?
Do you have the same answer for both of these questions?
AES_Enjoyer@reddthat.com 5 weeks ago
Is Iran responsible for what Hamas does with the weapons and munitions they supply them?
Yes, Iran is responsible for supplying weapons to Palestinians in their legitimate right of violent defense against an occupying force. Don’t you like international law or what?
Is the US responsible for what Israel does with the weapons and munitions they supply them?
Yes, the US is responsible for keeping the weapon deliveries to a genocidal apartheid state.
Are you, by any chance, trying to somehow equate Israeli genocidal violence to Palestinian militant defence against a genocidal occupying force?
SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca 5 weeks ago
So Iran is complicit in massacring villages and taking hostages on October 7. Do you think masscring villages is not an act of war?
Are you, by any chance, trying to somehow equate Israeli genocidal violence to Palestinian militant defence against a genocidal occupying force?
No I don’t equate massacring entire villages(what Hamas did) with taking military action to free hostages taken by terrorists (what Israel is doing).
xenomor@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
I just love western logic that decries killing civilians as terrorism when one side does it, but rationalizes the the same act when the other side does it in an efficient, mechanized way with orders of magnitude more death and destruction.
AES_Enjoyer@reddthat.com 5 weeks ago
No, it’s not an act of war, it’s violent resistance against an occupying force. As much as you probably believe Ukrainians have a right to defend themselves from Russian invasion, more so do Palestinians.
massacring entire villages(what Hamas did)
Bullshit genocidal propaganda. No wonder you get banned, you Nazi scum
outhouseperilous@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 weeks ago
do you think massacring villages is not an act of war
Slow clap
Bloomcole@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
Most were deliberately killed by their own diaper forces to create what they themselves called ‘our 9/11’
Deliberately ignored the warnings and moved that shitty festival in a terribly dangerous place next to the open air prison, not unlike what the US did with Pearl Harbor.
Furthermore these monsters always lie. There was no massacring, even thehostagescaptured coloniser scum (many of them also diaper forces) are still alive unfortunately.
Except the ones the colonisers shot while waving a white flag 😂 and the many bombed by the coloniser terrorists.Hamas are saints compared to these ziomonsters.
The genocide in Gaza makes me furious but now seeing shitrahell being hit really hard warms my heart.
Go cry somewhere else hasbara clown.
Enjoy:
…cnn.com/…/iranian-missile-strike-on-tel-aviv-nic…There’s plenty more but can’t not show this cunt and the anti-semitic pole the entire world is laughing at:
packaged-media.redd.it/…/m2-res_586p.mp4?m=DASHPl…🤣 😂 🤣
xenomor@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
Hamas is justifiably resisting a violent occupation. Also, the US has been participating far more directly in the apartheid and genocide than just supplying munitions.
outhouseperilous@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 weeks ago
We’re below the fold here, so nobody’s seeing this but people who agree with you and things that are not people.
the_tab_key@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
Yes to both.
outhouseperilous@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 weeks ago
No, because I’m sane. How much do you get paid for this? I’m an insufferable piece of shit willing to tell insane lies for no reason, and looking for work. Or, I mean I’ve got a friend who is.
beveradb@sh.itjust.works 5 weeks ago
I’m not the person you’re replying to, but I’m genuinely curious to understand your point of view.
For what it’s worth, my personal answer to those questions is the same for both questions, I think - “mostly”.
I think the US is ultimately the one to blame for the vast majority of conflict around the world, as they’ve been destabilising fledgling democracies, installing puppet governments, supplying tons of weapons, assassinating leaders, generally manipulating and bullying many countries for many decades. In general I think the US is the world’s biggest bully, and has a ton of rich people who profit from war, and the middle east has been one of their many warmongering playgrounds for a long time, sadly.
However, I do also think both Iran and Israel are really shitty, for many reasons - from what I’ve seen as an outsider who has never been to either place, both countries seem to have a long standing, deep rooted racially motivated hatred towards one another, and both are very willing and eager to use force and start wars. Not to mention the variety of human rights abuses in both countries.
So basically I think “everyone sucks here”, but I do think the US is ultimately responsible for most of the conflict. They’ve been meddling in Iran for decades, and Israel has been essentially an extension of the US’s usual bullying for decades, unfortunately accelerated by Netanyahu’s excitement to escalate and expand their territory through genocide and settlement, supported by US and various other western countries’ military supplies…
I’ve seen a few of your messages recently and it seems like you’ve got a lot of anger, but I’m confused about who it’s directed at and why 😅
Would you be willing to explain your point of view on the conflict, or link me to a post where you’ve already explained it?
SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca 5 weeks ago
I’m not angry… are you sure you’re not angry?
I have concerns that people on this site where everyone is winding each other up with stochastic terrorism talk universally agreeing that certain countries are evil (and some posts indicate some believe everyone in these countries are evil too). There’s a lot of dehumanizing Israelis, and I’ve met few Israelis in my travels, perfectly normal people to talk to and have a beer with or whatever. Israelis aren’t evil colonizers, they’re people born in an area where a lot of people around them hate them for exiting in that area.
So basically I think “everyone sucks here”, but I do think the US is ultimately responsible for most of the conflict. They’ve been meddling in Iran for decades, and Israel has been essentially an extension of the US’s usual bullying for decades
Well it takes two to tango doesn’t it? Well there’s a lot to untangle about this, it’s the Middle East shit’s always complicated.
For the Iran conflict… kinda. But Iran has responsibility too. In his first term, Trump cancelled the agreement that Obama made with Iran. Countries don’t declare war but they give signals like cancelling treaties and start making ultimatums. Trump did all that in his first term. But the thing with Trump is, he’s an idiot. So Trump essentially declared war on Iran and then… didn’t do the war. And then he assassinated an Iranian General which is an act of war. And then didn’t have a war.
There’s levels of stupid to unpack here. First it would be stupid for the US to go to war with Iran as long as they were following the treaty, which all reports indicate they were. But if you make all the moves to start a war, you’re kinda committed and it’s stupid to not have a war after you committed to it. So Trump created a big mess there.
So it’s kinda strange to assign blame to the US because it was all Trump’s incompetence. But I guess Trump was and is the President, so I guess the US (Trump) is responsible for making a mess of a diplomatic agreement that the US (Obama) made with Iran. That sounds so stupid without indicating the Presidents, but here we are. I can’t stress enough how much of an idiot Trump has been. The US doesn’t have a cohesive foreign policy anymore.
But we can’t ignore Iran’s responsibility in this. They have been supporting a lot of terrorist organizations, including Hamas which massacred Israeli villages, took hostages to Gaza forcing Israel into a ground war in a densely populated urban environment. Hamas tactics are designed to maximize Palestinian civilian casualties in attempt to foment hatred toward Israel. Hamas won the propaganda war, though they’ll probably be destroyed along with a significant part of Gaza. But but they successfully spread of Israel so that’s a win?
So Hamas is responsible for the Israel-Hamas war. Hamas is Iran’s proxy, so Iran is complicit in that. And that brings us back to the Israel-Iran conflict.
So Iran is the ultimate source of all of this suffering and destruction. Throughout the region. So does that justify a war on Iran? Maybe maybe not.
But there’s more… Iran has many times officially stated they want to wipe Israel of the map. So they’ve very publicly declared they want to be an existential threat. And there’s been indication from the UN Atomic monitoring agency that Iran has been hiding things in their nuclear program, not answering questions about things and enriching more uranium than the level they agreed to limit themselves to. They also announced they were going to start testing a missile capable of carrying a 2 ton warhead to Israel.
So whether or not the Hamas war justifies Israel going to war with Iran, all of the nuclear stuff does. This is life or death for Israel, if a country that’s said they want to wipe you off the map gets the capability to do so? They can’t allow that to happen.
So Iran is also responsible for this war. Iran’s proxies attacked Israel, the threats of wiping Israel off the map, the nuclear stuff, all of that means there will be a war.
So I guess in summary:
Trump could have NOT cancelled the Treaty. Trump could have NOT assassinated the general. Iran could have NOT supported terrorist groups. Iran could have NOT threatened to wipe Israel off the map. Iran could have NOT done all the the nuclear stuff.
But they did do those things. So there’s sheer incompetence from Trump and a lot of incompetence and horrible actions by Iran and it’s proxies that all added up to a war.
But most people on these threads just reduce all of this complexity down to Israel=bad, US=bad, Iran=innocent victim of the bad guys. It’s really a mix of incompetence and hatred of Israel that’s caused so much destruction. Sure Israel has done some bad things with the settlements, but the level of hatred feels like it stems from a lifetime of indoctrination under fascist rule. Hatred of Israel hasn’t resulted in anything good for Palestinians and it hasn’t done any good for Iranians. I know it’s a problem for some Muslim sects for Jews to be living where they’re living, but at certain point… just release the hostages and accept that Israel has a right to exist. Israel has been convinced to withdraw settlements, but it’s hard to convince them to concede any ground when everyone around them are trying kill them.
I think a Palestinian non-violent resistance movement would be successful in establishing a Palestinian state. Does it really look like a violent movement is being successful?
But a lot of people are acting like elementary school shitheads constantly egging on their classmates to fight. Violence obviously isn’t working for Palestinians, how many of them have to die before everyone realizes that? It feels like people think Palestinians exist only to be cannon fodder just for their sick games.
beveradb@sh.itjust.works 5 weeks ago
Thanks for taking the time to reply! I’m definitely not angry, I personally think all of these countries suck and it’s none of my business really so there’s no emotion in it for me, I’m just curious to understand where people are coming from when they post inflammatory / heated messages.
For what it’s worth, I definitely don’t think Iran is any better than Israel overall - they’ve both done pretty awful things over the years. I just think Iran is slightly more of a victim of the US (starting with the 1953 coup) whereas Israel has always had unconditional support from the US. When you’re talking about a war-hungry country with the worlds largest military, that’s a big deal.
I’ve just asked this prompt to an unbiased LLM and read through the responses, would love to hear your take on the below and if there’s anything you disagree with / think is false in it’s responses:
“throughout the last few decades, in all of the conflict in the middle east, has Iran been more of a bully or a victim? and, how much of the conflict in the middle east, including anything with Iran or Israel, has been ultimately caused by the US (directly or indirectly)? please try to remain unbiased in your response, I’m interested in plain facts as much as possible (even though I know I’m asking a subjective question)”
LLM response here; I know it’s a lot of text but it’s super informative, IMO worth a read and I’d love to hear your response if you do read it! gist.github.com/…/d35beffc4f26299e24c34fb8889fbb8…
outhouseperilous@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 weeks ago
You really are a master of defending the indefensibly monstrous. Not well, but in such a way as to piss literally everyone off and insult every living thing almost separately!
SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca 5 weeks ago
It’s cool, take your time in answering the questions. Critical thinking can be difficult for those that haven’t had a lot of practice with it. There’s no time limit to answer the questions, and the third question is rhetorical, so don’t worry about that one.
outhouseperilous@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 weeks ago
This is beautiful.
outhouseperilous@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 weeks ago
Your trolling is a thing of beauty. I’m learning so much about how to come off as an irrational piece of shit.
SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca 5 weeks ago
Thanks! Have read Jonathan Swift’s “A Modest Proposal”?
The trick is to figure out a way that forces people to actually think about an issue. People hate thinking!
But it’s really important for people to think about things. In case you haven’t noticed, a lot of things in the world are going in a bad way and too many people are on autopilot just quoting bullshit from the internet. Not good to let algorithms think for you.
outhouseperilous@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 weeks ago
actually think
Oh. Have you ever tried that yourself?
Bloomcole@lemmy.world 5 weeks ago
Are you making it about Hamas now?
Palestine has the right to defend itself from colonisers, anything Hamas does is pisrahells fault. FAFO Go cry somewhere elseouthouseperilous@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 weeks ago
Honey you’re not arguing with a person and this comment is below the fold. You can drop it.
pishadoot@sh.itjust.works 5 weeks ago
The most prevalent proxies are the houthis and Hezbollah, which Iran has been arming, financially supporting, and influencing for about two decades now so they can attack Israel without getting themselves into an all out war with Israel and the USA, which they know they would likely lose.
Argue all you want about whether or not Israel should have bombed Iran, but calling it unprovoked is extremely disingenuous.
AES_Enjoyer@reddthat.com 5 weeks ago
By that logic, half the world has the right to bomb the USA for arming proxies all over the world, though.
Also, why are you jumping to defend the actions of a state currently committing genocide against Palestinians?
outhouseperilous@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 weeks ago
I live here and I wouldn’t hold it against them. Please stay out of DTLA though. With the bombs; totally get your last meal there if you’re headed to like Raytheon or something in OC, you won’t regret it
pishadoot@sh.itjust.works 5 weeks ago
I’m not defending Israel. I’m answering this guy’s question, like wHaT PrOxIeS??
You can straw man all you want, but not once have I defended Israel’s actions. Just because Israel is shit to gazans doesn’t mean that Iran is not also shit to Israel. Straw man.
If we want to have a legitimate conversation about morality then we start by agreeing on facts.
Trying to claim Iran did nothing wrong is not factual.
outhouseperilous@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 weeks ago
Iran does plenty wrong. Not to zionazis.
And not just because nothing is inexcusable when done rozionazi protocols LARPers
But because there’s an existential threat that always attacks first, multiple times,before Iran retaliates.
AES_Enjoyer@reddthat.com 5 weeks ago
The Houthis and Hezbollah are the only people in the world with a spine to attempt some fight against the 21st century Nazis, Iran arming them is a moral thing. The Nazis weren’t defeated with nice words in the previous century, and they won’t be in this one either.
SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca 5 weeks ago
Hamas is also an Iranian proxy. They attacked Israel in a very big way.
dubyakay@lemmy.ca 5 weeks ago
Hamas is an Israeli product that attacked itself on purpose. They couldn’t have done it without help from Papa Yahoo.
SpaceCowboy@lemmy.ca 5 weeks ago
Well since we’re just putting random words together, two can play at that game! Netanyahu is a Hamas product! Netanyahu wouldn’t be Prime Minister if it weren’t for Hamas! Switcharoo, I win!