TERFs are “radfem” in nothing but name.
Comment on What do you think the solution to selling progressive politics to young men is ?
MolochAlter@lemmy.world 1 day ago
This is all from the perspective of a non-american from a country where thankfully we are still liberal at heart and only entertain some progressive ideas, instead of buying it wholesale, meaning the right has yet to completely cannibalise the government over the mistakes of the left.
- Move away from equity and return to equality of opportunity as the main goal. Equity demands lack of competition, and men love competition.
You can want everyone to receive equal opportunity and dignity, but people are not equal and will not end in the same place once the race is over. You can’t demand equality of outcome and onboard the most competitive demographic, there is a reason if the stereotype of leftist men is passive wimps. This is completely compatible with prgressive ideas, but it’s incompatible with progressive brains, apparently.
- Actually understand what intersectionality looks like, stop treating it like a hierarchy of oppression.
The core idea of intersectionality is that each demographic has its own issues and they manifest differently if more demographics overlap in the same individual (e.g. sexism against white women vs sexism against black women exhibit different tropes and connotations).
This does not mean whoever has the least minoritary traits is the most acceptable target, that is some marxist “oppressor vs oppressed” horseshit and, while it was probably the intended idea, it is massively counterproductive and doesn’t have to be the actual application of the issue.
Men have issues that women don’t have, women have issues that men don’t have. As soon as your movement decides to prioritise one they have lost the other.
The reason this does not happen with race is that no movement in the US can realistically exist politically without white people simply by virtue of how huge the white slice of the demo pie is, and because this whole thing was started by highly educated, economically mobile, overwhelingly white, college grads who live in very specific coastal bubbles, hence the endemic hatred of farmers and factory workers, the actual working class of the US, as hicks and racists, and the lionisation of serving staff like baristas and waiters (the only working class most large city dwellers ever interact with).
- Move away from “patriarchy”.
It’s just a fucking L on its face isn’t it? “Yes come join the party that thinks men being in power is the problem” fat fucking chance lol.
And when they do join, the parodies write themselves.
I don’t care if you think it’s “just a name” (especially in light of what progs consistently do over “just a name” and “just a statue” and so on) it’s a massive optics L that shows all of the horseshit about microaggressions and non-confrontational language and whatnot are entirely performative.
You have the most obvious othering language in the core ideas of the movement and then complain about microaggressions? And you wonder why people don’t take you seriously?
And while we’re on that:
- Politeness is baseline, respect is earned. Confrontation is necessary and men are more likely to thrive in confrontational spaces.
You can’t have a political movement that does not tolerate dissent and confrontation, or only tolerates it in one direction.
The whole point of politics is to create a critical mass of people who align on some goal to push for it, you don’t have to agree with them on every point, if you had enough people who agree with you, you would be already in the majority and would not need to participate in politics.
Easy example from the last decade: TERFs.
Now, I don’t like TERFs, on account of them being radfems and thus automatically hostile to me due to the circumstances of my birth (i.e. penis), but you know what? I reckon they probably want women to have better salaries and fewer barriers to entry into professional fields.
Let them force themselves into political irrelevance if they refuse to play ball, don’t make a big fucking show of kicking them out of the movement, because then you end up on the back foot of having to explain “trans women are women” to the mass population and the TERFs simply need to say “look at these brainwashed biology deniers, they think males and females have no differences” and you end up eating your own ass in public, when the point is that trans women ought to be treated as women for their own good and a more welcoming society.
(side note: if you are in that brainless chunk of progs who do believe there is no difference between the sexes, I highly encourage you to look at the world records in any discipline with easily measured metrics such as 100m dash and freestyle swimming. Not a single male record is under the women’s record, in some cases every historical male record eclipses the current female one. Males and females are different, this should be acknowledged, and it should not be a barrier to equal dignity in treatment.)
A movement that can’t include anyone but the most in-line and pure of the ideological adepts is doomed to be irrelevant, and on that the progressives have an almost complete lock.
prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 day ago
MolochAlter@lemmy.world 1 day ago
They were here before you, just because you disagree with them doesn’t make them not feminists.
This is a great example of what I meant, btw: progressives act like every protestant denomination, calling eachother “not real christians” not realising they are all the same brand of sanctimonious.
prole@lemmy.blahaj.zone 9 hours ago
They were here before you,
Pardon?
Squirrelanna@lemmynsfw.com 14 hours ago
What part of TERF ideology is actually feminist and not a thinly veiled mask for conservative-based gender essentialist ideology that feminism at its core has been fighting against since it’s inception, just this time aimed at trans women to protect “real women”?
I’m genuinely curious because all the advocacy I’ve seen from TERFS is all about demonizing transgender women, infantilizing transgender men and… Siding suspiciously often with conservatives more than their supposed ideological ancestors.
Feathercrown@lemmy.world 1 day ago
Harsh to hear but I believe this perspective to be both mostly true and very important to accept/understand
MolochAlter@lemmy.world 1 day ago
Keep in mind I’m not saying to accept TERFs, I’m saying to be smart about letting them cut themselves off instead of forcing them out.
Feathercrown@lemmy.world 1 day ago
Fair. IMO it depends on how much you value being morally correct vs overall effectiveness of the movement. It could be worth it to compromise the integrity slightly if it will be much more effective.
MolochAlter@lemmy.world 1 day ago
IMO it depends on how much you value being morally correct vs overall effectiveness of the movement.
And this entire thought process is why the left gets weaker every round of elections.
Politics is about seizing and wielding power, morality has nothing to do with it.
For one, any grifter can pretend to be more morally correct than you or I and once they get in power they will do whatever they want anyway. I would much rather side with someone who disagrees with me on some things but does so in earnest than someone who is suspiciously always somehow more moral and more correct than me or them.
For two, morality is literally incompatible with politics, because it is downstream from the body politic.
For instance: It is considered immoral to own slaves, today. It used to be allowed and to the mores of the time, uncontroversial.
Then enough people who disagreed with that stance pushed to gain power and made it illegal, once that became the status quo for long enough it is now controversial to hold a position that was the default and viceversa.
Something becomes a matter of morality once it is no longer a matter of politics.
In practice, you don’t actually need support for all your ideas, you need enough good ideas to get you enough support that you can then push through your less popular pet issues. Even better if the pet issues themselves are popular, that’s when you get explosive successes like Trump getting re-elected by hammering the inflation button (despite anyone who knows anything about econ knowing he would be literally unable to do anything about it).
As long as people are not actively against your pet issues they’ll re-elect you just fine, that’s how croneyism skates by unnoticed.
iarigby@lemmy.world 1 day ago
wow. most of what you write creates culture that completely excludes and alienates women. See: hostility of current male dominated fields towards women. Blows my mind that you consider going backwards, rather than male culture evolving to be better human beings, to be a solution.
spacecadet@lemm.ee 1 day ago
It’s amazing how well he articulated the problem and pointed out potential solutions just for you to give a perfect example of the type of rhetoric he is talking about that drives people away from the left. Like his link, the parody writes itself…
iarigby@lemmy.world 1 day ago
my existence and me wanting to not be oppressed is not “the left”. Men throwing tantrums at not having unchecked control over women in the workplace or not having maids at home is not an “articulated” problem or a solution. I’ve done nothing but give support and love to good men around me who are partners or friends because I hurt for how much harm patriarchy inflicts on them too, and having heard from them how toxic, unjust, and completely devoid of empathy the oppressive environment created by their fellow men is, I have zero tolerance for people advocating to keep subjecting humans to that culture.
spacecadet@lemm.ee 16 hours ago
Generally the most welcoming and comforting places are men’s clubs and groups, so much so, that women have fought legal battles to get into male only spaces like fraternities, gyms, clubs, societies, etc… yet there are no men fighting to get into women’s spaces. Really makes you think… the most toxic workplaces I have been involved in were the jobs I had where women dominated the demographic. There was constant bickering, backstabbing, and gossip that me and the men didn’t want to participate in and certainly couldn’t keep up with. It wasn’t until my desk got moved to a factory floor that was heavily male dominated that people cared and looked out for each other more. This may have been because of the safety culture differences of a factory floor vs an office, but it felt deeper than that. Happy hours were actually happy and not filled with angst, no office drama, I could be more open and honest because my male coworkers wouldn’t get “the ick” if I was having a bad day and actually looked out for me, etc… I think women use the “patriarchy” as this nebulous, abstract thing that they can just place all of their failures and shortcomings as a person on so that way they don’t have to face the truth that deep down they are a disgusting person.
Feathercrown@lemmy.world 1 day ago
A competitive spirit is not morally wrong and calling men worse human beings for having one is so fundamentally wrong that I can only ask you to reread and reconsider the above post.
iarigby@lemmy.world 1 day ago
competitive spirit is very healthy, however we have decades of very well documented evidence of how keeping it unchecked and alienating anyone with emotional intelligence plays out in real life. I also never called men as worse human beings - case in point that anyone pointing out the toxicity in **male only **culture is labeled as hating men
MolochAlter@lemmy.world 1 day ago
I have a bit of a preconceived notion as to why you are saying this, however I would rather ask you to be more specific before jumping to conclusions. Can you give concrete examples as to how my suggestions would alienate women?