I think the basic issue is that you seem to have the maximalist goal of wanting PeerTube to be at similar numbers to YouTube, and missing that, you don’t see anyone finding worth in it - so I will argue against that point, hoping I did not misread you there.
No, my point is that there is no reason for a Content Creator to actually put effort into Peertube (or even the youtube alternatives that they aren’t co-owners of). And there is no path toward that.
For the same reason many thousands of people can download 4k movies and shows concurrently via torrents with just a few dedicated seedboxes
People run seedboxes because they get something out of it: Private tracker access.
You apparently are happy to donate your bandwidth. Good for you. I suspect you would think otherwise when a video “goes viral” and you suddenly get a call from your ISP telling you they have decided you are hosting a business and that you need to pay for a different internet plan. PLENTY of people learned this the fun way back in the 90s/00s.
The real costly part is storage, bandwidth is surprisingly affordable considering the project we are talking about
In the context of file hosting, “bandwidth” is usually used as a catch all for both the raw bandwidth of a single node AND the requirements of a CDN. Otherwise that server gets hugged to death, everyone is angry, blah blah blah. Again, this is a lesson we learned in the 00s.
he influx in audience a “big creator” could mean to an instance, as well as with it potential support in donations both directly and indirecty, could very well outweigh the addional costs
Ah, so now content creators are working specifically to support Peertube. Which means their effective operating costs have just skyrocketed because now they are paying for their own hosting AND paying for all the time and materials to make the video in the first place.
Which is WHY Youtube became so massive. Paying for your own hosting is REALLY expensive and tears into already thin margins for the vast majority of Content Creators.
I’m assuming I missed a valid scandal here that led to closing of an instance, but - Lemmy (and PieFed, and mBin) is very much alive and we are discussing on i
This board is on the dot world instance. Back when Luigi allegedly popped that guy, dot world was leading the charge in terms of complete nonsense CYAs to protect the instance from getting a knock from the FBI equivalent. Similarly, I have my account on the dot zip instance and we have very weird rules regarding the UK because of their data privacy laws.
Or, to be an old again: Every even semi-public FTP server goes the same way. Everything is great. Then you suddenly realize that porn has appeared out of nowhere. And, best case scenario, it is the kind of porn that gets people arrested (because it can get SO much worse…). The same issue came up with file sharing back in the day. And it is why a lot of lemmy/mastodon instances have very specific rules regarding image hosting and NSFW content.
It is great you have had a good experience. Others won’t and will rapidly realize just what they are doinating their bandwidth to.
And audience-wise, it already is a fitting niche for people you disregarded
Great. I didn’t “disregard” anyone. But you have to understand that You Don’t Matter. Because all those things that you (and I) hate about modern video content? That is done to make money.
Google are constantly running analytics to figure out what length of video is most profitable for them in terms of storage, bandwidth, and monetizability. Content Creators are constantly figuring out what Google wants to get a video promoted to the front page AND what will make people not only click that video on the front page but also keep watching so that they can get the metrics that get them those sponsorships.
And its great that you and the people who like Peertube don’t care about that. But that gets back to the same exact point I have been making the entire time: if creating content for a platform can’t even meaningfully offset the cost of creating that content in the first place, the VAST majority of people won’t and you are basically left with the independently wealthy people.
Already mentioned it elsewhere in the thread but this is a story as old as history itself. Creating art costs money. Canvas and paint costs money. Having the time to stay another day to look at that landscape for just a bit longer costs money.
Having a good camera and mic costs money. Having the newest fanciest cell phone with the auto stabilizer so you don’t need a rig costs money. Having the time to learn and use that video editing software costs money. Having the time to keep your head clear enough to really do a solid edit costs money.
And same with the Maker Youtube style content or even the DIY content. Having that second CO2 canister to do another run? Or even just having a piece of wood and a clamp so you can show how that dishwasher airgap actually works without needing to try to angle a camera into a tight corner.
Hell… being able to Go To The Zoo on a less popular day? Guess what that costs?
And taht is the fundamental issue. Yes, there will be people who make content and some of it will be genuinely awesome. But there is also a pretty massive ceiling that will basically mean only independently wealthy people have the time and resources to do a “good video”. And… we kind of actually saw that in the early days of youtube where a LOT of the old hats are from rich families or have cash from their startup being bought and so forth.
What peertube (and basically all the youtube alternatives) lack is any way to move on from that.
To reiterate and expand: The life cycle of a successful youtuber (or twitch streamer or whatever) is:
- Create content at severe personal cost
- Qualify for ad revenue. Offset some of that cost but still require a day job. Gauge popularity based on ad revenue
- Qualify for a referral link for online retailers. Actually make genuinely good money that can potentially lead to this becoming a full time job. Well, not so much after the honey nonsense is likely going to make all this go away but…
- Qualify for sponsorships at decent rates. THIS is where things can reasonably become a full time job and you can start making true Art rather than fitting a build in between your normal job
- Get popular enough that you can get enough of a following that people actually WILL “just put some money in the tip jar”
Peertube et al only really exist starting on step 4 (because you can bet most instance owners would strip or hijack those referral links…). And… no company people will want to deal with is going to be sponsoring content that goes to a fraction of the audience that is also predisposed to consider any form of marketing or capitalism a personal insult.
Which basically leaves 5. Which… we are already seeing. linus media group LOVES to pretend Floatplane (which might actually use Peertube under the hood, I forget) is some mega successful business. But he still does youtube content front and center and Floatplane mostly exists for him to profit off a few other youtubers and to encourage his rabid fanbase to give him more money. And there will likely be other creators who decide to “support Peertube” while still primarily making Youtube content. And… they will just crash the ecosystem while getting nerd/FOSS cred.
AbnormalHumanBeing@lemmy.abnormalbeings.space 1 day ago
I think there is some aggression here directed at me that comes from stuff other people in the thread have been throwing at you, so I have some understanding for the aggressive tone, even though I wonder why you are that emotionally invested, or at least, why your language seems to reflect that to that degree at this moment. I don’t think we will be able to change each others’ mind either way. But I feel like I should address at least a few points, where I think your estimations are at least off (again, not completely untrue):
Okay, that at least makes the context more understandable to me. And for the big ones, I still agree. For a lot of others, I think even now publishing on both can make genuine sense, it’s surprisingly cheap, or even free utilising one of the many established instances, to have additional reach with a passionate and growing community. And I do think that with further growth, there is potnential for it to attract more than just people doing it “out of the goodness of their heart.” And I do think it is not doomed to be a “fundamentally un-profitable platform”. Even now, with just a few months running, I have a surprisingly large chunk of costs covered by donations already, which I did not expect.
And people run PeerTube instances for a multitude of reasons. Some financed by donations, some out of pocket, some by non-profits. They get the same out of it, as any of the other big Fediverse instances, sometimes just community and pride, sometimes a genuine side job, some non-profits have employees having it as a main job, too.
Well, it wouldn’t be my ISP, as it’s not my home connection, but my server provider. But, point taken. So far, stress tests haven’t yet produced the risk of what you are describing, to my knowledge. Might happen, might not, you seem to have experience, which I respect. But I also know that experience might not translate to different situations and dynamics properly at times, and I also respect the people in the broader PeerTube community running instances with their own experience also greater than my own not agreeing on that point as unambivalently.
Actually, you misunderstood what I meant here. What I meant was a large content creator just generating a growth in community for an instance, some of which will be supporting the instance on their own, with the content creator maybe also adding donations if they want to. Again, everything I have heard from the community currently active on PeerTube, some of which having been active for Years, indicates costs scale better than your estimate seems to indicate, including, again, from people more experienced than me, and with some exceptional videos already in the 100ks of views.
You kind of did with:
Maybe you did not mean it that way, but claiming “everyone” is a statement that disregards people you claim are not existing in “everyone”. Speaking of disregarding:
I mean, that’s what I mean with, why do you seem so emotionally invested. What are you trying to do? Save us all from investing resources into PeerTube? Just end up “winning” this argument for winning’s sake?
And people passionate about things, which is an important group. E.g. I am living on disability payments that are subsistence level (in a western European country, so it is overall okay, with some general frugality “life hacks” and cutting back on what others may think of as essential), yet I am investing a lot out of pocket into the Fediverse just because that is what I want to do. I am well aware I am not the average person, and not indicative of the vast, vast majority of people, but it is still another type of engaged person for platforms like that at this stage of development, that provide spaces and community already for PeerTube, that others grow within synergetically.
But more broadly, content is not created for PeerTube exclusively at this point of growth anyway, with only very rare exceptions, so almost no one is creating costs just for PeerTube right now. The question is of course - if PeerTube could generate 100ks or even eventually millions of views regularly with additional growth - would it be an attractive platform to put effort into? So, concerning some of the points you made there:
Not what I have seen actually happening with referral links for the channels that publish on both platforms and have them (e.g. Gardiner Bryant), so you speak of hypotheticals here, when there are already situations where this is not happening in this way. And there has been no drama, no flaming comments, no “boycott his instance” calls.
As for your 1 and 2 concerning the life-cycle of content creators, I do agree with it, but don’t think skipping step 2 in itself is completely impossible with a different culture and community. Some things that have helped offset it for the few creators I know of exclusively publishing on PeerTube are things like their already existing Mastodon communities being able to very easily interact with their videos without having to change their favourite medium, as well as:
My experience has been, that this is at least somewhat mitigated by there being an on average greater willingness on the Fediverse in general to support things via donations, again anecdotally, I was surprised that I got some so early on in my “fuck it, I’ll just start hosting Fediverse stuff now out of pocket because I want to and I cut back on other stuff”-journey. At this point, not at all enough to carry anyone, but I never claimed PeerTube is able to that that on its own right now, just that the potential exists, IMO.
Your point is taken, and I agree - I also don’t see anyone professionally publishing on PeerTube as their only platform any time soon, unless they have outside revenue (e.g. I have an art collective publishing their professional content on my instance for independence and conviction reasons, but their main revenue stream is of course their events themselves. Still, there is a degree of additional promotion they get for free for being part of PeerTube instead of just self hosting.)
But you did claim originally that there are no reasons at all for creators to care (which, granted, you did clarify and moved away from a maximalist position), and claimed it being fundamentally un-profitable to publish there without ads. You also suspected the devs being in risk of selling out and just creating this as a prestige project to do so - which is probably one reason you got backlash, because that betrays a lack of understanding for the project and team behind it. And you noted - “any video hosted only on a single ‘instance’ would rapidly cost way too much if it ever became moderately popular.” - moderately popular is a fuzzy term, of course, but so far, this does not at all look to be the case in scaling stress tests and what I have seen of the actually existing infrastructure. E.g. I’ve seen some French videos getting several thousands of views in hours to a few days, running on what is listed as essentially a laptop at someones private home (which is of course the absolute cheapest tier of hardware employed), and those instances have managed to exist at that scale for years, indicating professional servers would scale up pretty well and can punch way above their weight class when compared to centralised services.
And I do think that even just right now, a few dozen to hundreds additional views from passionate people really interested in your content can be a huge boon to small to medium creators, and that is the status quo at the moment, with growing numbers, growing synergies (e.g. PeerTube being easily embedded in lemmy-ui is quite new) and growing projects to address discoverability (e.g. Sepia Search or the PeerTube Picks add-on) and already more professional exceptions going beyond just dozens of views (e.g. the aforementioned heise instance).
You clearly have a lot of professional and personal experience, that I do respect. The overall dynamics you describe are real - but I suspect you might at least lack some experience with the kind of structures that are currently being built in the broader Fediverse, as well as PeerTube in particular, including the use cases PeerTube already has. Case in point for the latter: The many hypotheticals you employ, which are sometimes, but still not always, accurate to what is an already existing community on PeerTube that has existed for years now.