Hmm, I think we have vastly different perspectives on what PeerTube has to become to be a worthwhile product, because I agree with a lot of what you said, but I don’t fully see what the problem is and don’t think the ultimate conclusion - which seems to be “No one would want to produce and/or browse content on there” - is true. I think the basic issue is that you seem to have the maximalist goal of wanting PeerTube to be at similar numbers to YouTube, and missing that, you don’t see anyone finding worth in it - so I will argue against that point, hoping I did not misread you there.
A small thing to start out with, but it is something I have definitely noticed while running an instance these past months, and something people underestimate I think - concerning:
you put even Not An Engineer on your peertube instance and he is going to consume a disproportionate amount of bandwidth. Let alone a Michael Reeves who would crash the entire fediverse during his annual video.
While taken as-fact if those number of viewers just appeared right now outside of organic growth, it might be true, I am not aware of scaling tests that go that large. But PeerTube is ridiculously scalable in bandwidth, thanks to the Peer2Peer nature. For the same reason many thousands of people can download 4k movies and shows concurrently via torrents with just a few dedicated seedboxes, PeerTube can scale bandwidth really, really well. My server has ~300GB reserved to automatically mirror and seed trending, new and popular videos, for example, so it is also not just home internet connections helping with bandwidth security. So I think you are underestimating the scalability here.
The real costly part is storage, bandwidth is surprisingly affordable considering the project we are talking about - the influx in audience a “big creator” could mean to an instance, as well as with it potential support in donations both directly and indirecty, could very well outweigh the addional costs (again - mostly storage). More generally as another anecdote about how scaleable PeerTube is thanks to the underlying tech - Mastodon has been much more of a head-scratcher in scalability for my server resources (A bit of config changes helped there, thankfully, but it is still far less efficient) - and that is with just me myself as a user on there at the moment, compared to ~50 active users on my PeerTube instance, including people uploading videos.
And:
Ad revenue gets worse and worse every year but it usually is essential to even offsetting parts and labor for a video for smaller creators. I think it was Gamers Nexus that discussed the different tiers of monetization in the context of the honey scandal, but the basic idea is that ads are what let you know if a channel has any legs and referral links are what keep you alive until you are big enough for a sponsor to care.
I don’t know Gamer’s Nexus, and how their numbers broke down, so I have no real grounds of questioning their logic. On the other hand, I do know of a few channels I used to watch on YT publishing their numbers in community posts. Those numbers definitely made me think, that channels that make proper money from ads that would be essential in any way, are not what I would call “small” at all. And I am a bit confused - first you mention it is essential income, then you mention it is in fact mostly useful as a metric for measuring feasibility? I think I may have misread something there.
Which gets back to: Peertube as a concept is great for official tutorials and MAYBE blog posts by “nobodies”. Why would anyone go out of their way to join in decentralized hosting of that? And while it is conceptually a great way to “can’t stop the signal” an important video… it either rapidly becomes liveleaks or we see the same thing that happened with Lemmy where the instance owners get a phone call from their local FBI equivalent and rapidly say “I don’t want that smoke”.
I’m assuming I missed a valid scandal here that led to closing of an instance, but - Lemmy (and PieFed, and mBin) is very much alive and we are discussing on it. It is even a better place for some niche content in the FLOSS sphere, than Reddit is right now. So, I am not certain what exactly you mean by the consequences of something happening to Lemmy?
But Peertube as something people would even want to browse or create Content for? I have yet to see any path toward that that isn’t “Well, people really love the ideologies of FOSS so they’ll do it out of the goodness of their heart”
“Well, people really love the ideologies of FOSS so they’ll do it out of the goodness of their heart” is indeed part of the first wave of the ecosystem. And roughly four years ago, when I first had a look at PeerTube, that was all that was on there - and illegal stuff, and crypto grifters, and conspiracy nuts banned from everywhere else. So at that time, I think you would have been right on the money with the LiveLeak comparison, I could not stand to stay back then, even as a FLOSS fanatic.
Since then, the ecosystem has grown massively - makertube.net and spectra.tv for example have a lot of just passionate people that enjoy making and documenting their projects. There’s a bit of a surge of just channels wanting a backup independent of big tech, partially because of the Boycott US movement. Recently, the largest German tech media outlet, heise, have started up their own instance for all their video channels, because they realised that techies are actually on the Fediverse and those are the people buying their magazines. One I couldn’t check myself, but Framasoft have mentioned in their FAQ, that there are some French organisations that host with PeerTube simply for the sake of data sovereignty and lessening dependence (I can’t confirm the scale here - but I have definitely seen a lot of professional level French stuff on PeerTube I could not enjoy, sadly, due to the language barrier). So, the ecosystem has already grown from the days of just being LiveLeak + hardcore Richard Stallman worshippers. Maybe I should adjust my metaphor from the current stage being lichen, and there actually already being a bit of grasses. Nothing on the level of the really big YT channels yet, but definitely a few on the “professionals with a dedicated community” level already.
Every bit of growth makes it potentially [more] interesting for any non-ideologically motivated content creator that wants an additional audience they may not get if they publish exclusively on YouTube. So that is one entry point, that can eventually become relevant to people beyond those that just find the idea interesting - or are driven by paranoia or idealism. That is slow, organic growth with occasional boom-bust cycles, much like with other Fediverse services - but it is growth, beyond just idealists.
And audience-wise, it already is a fitting niche for people you disregarded - people like me who genuinely do like old YouTube. I am still watching YT, there is some quality content that is simply not available elsewhere, like Majuular’s amazing Ultima retrospective which released its latest entry just today. But I have reduced my time on YouTube massively, and I’ve genuinely grown so tired of some of the tropes that have become impossible to miss after I started to spend more time on PeerTube. Artificial lengthening of videos for watch time engagement for example, blue-balling important information for more engagement. “Leave a comment” just for the sake of engagement and the algorithm - often even to the annoyance of the creators themselves who have to hamper their creativity to fit a formula. The several layers of post-ironic clickbait (sadly, that is also present on PeerTube, but to a lesser degree). I know you are fully aware of all those things and they simply don’t outweigh the problems for you, but they are creating an active audience for the PeerTube ecosystem even now, without any of the bigger channels.
So, I guess in the end all I can say is that I don’t share your perspective, both in having PeerTube fully supplanting YouTube as a (necessary) goal and in seeing no potential for the platform beyond tutorials and “nobodies”. None of us has a crystal ball, of course. I might be wrong - but I definitely see more potential than you do, I guess mostly because I have seen it grow and keep growing, in underlying tech and in participating community, over the past years.
NuXCOM_90Percent@lemmy.zip 1 day ago
No, my point is that there is no reason for a Content Creator to actually put effort into Peertube (or even the youtube alternatives that they aren’t co-owners of). And there is no path toward that.
People run seedboxes because they get something out of it: Private tracker access.
You apparently are happy to donate your bandwidth. Good for you. I suspect you would think otherwise when a video “goes viral” and you suddenly get a call from your ISP telling you they have decided you are hosting a business and that you need to pay for a different internet plan. PLENTY of people learned this the fun way back in the 90s/00s.
In the context of file hosting, “bandwidth” is usually used as a catch all for both the raw bandwidth of a single node AND the requirements of a CDN. Otherwise that server gets hugged to death, everyone is angry, blah blah blah. Again, this is a lesson we learned in the 00s.
Ah, so now content creators are working specifically to support Peertube. Which means their effective operating costs have just skyrocketed because now they are paying for their own hosting AND paying for all the time and materials to make the video in the first place.
Which is WHY Youtube became so massive. Paying for your own hosting is REALLY expensive and tears into already thin margins for the vast majority of Content Creators.
This board is on the dot world instance. Back when Luigi allegedly popped that guy, dot world was leading the charge in terms of complete nonsense CYAs to protect the instance from getting a knock from the FBI equivalent. Similarly, I have my account on the dot zip instance and we have very weird rules regarding the UK because of their data privacy laws.
Or, to be an old again: Every even semi-public FTP server goes the same way. Everything is great. Then you suddenly realize that porn has appeared out of nowhere. And, best case scenario, it is the kind of porn that gets people arrested (because it can get SO much worse…). The same issue came up with file sharing back in the day. And it is why a lot of lemmy/mastodon instances have very specific rules regarding image hosting and NSFW content.
It is great you have had a good experience. Others won’t and will rapidly realize just what they are doinating their bandwidth to.
Great. I didn’t “disregard” anyone. But you have to understand that You Don’t Matter. Because all those things that you (and I) hate about modern video content? That is done to make money.
Google are constantly running analytics to figure out what length of video is most profitable for them in terms of storage, bandwidth, and monetizability. Content Creators are constantly figuring out what Google wants to get a video promoted to the front page AND what will make people not only click that video on the front page but also keep watching so that they can get the metrics that get them those sponsorships.
And its great that you and the people who like Peertube don’t care about that. But that gets back to the same exact point I have been making the entire time: if creating content for a platform can’t even meaningfully offset the cost of creating that content in the first place, the VAST majority of people won’t and you are basically left with the independently wealthy people.
Already mentioned it elsewhere in the thread but this is a story as old as history itself. Creating art costs money. Canvas and paint costs money. Having the time to stay another day to look at that landscape for just a bit longer costs money.
Having a good camera and mic costs money. Having the newest fanciest cell phone with the auto stabilizer so you don’t need a rig costs money. Having the time to learn and use that video editing software costs money. Having the time to keep your head clear enough to really do a solid edit costs money.
And same with the Maker Youtube style content or even the DIY content. Having that second CO2 canister to do another run? Or even just having a piece of wood and a clamp so you can show how that dishwasher airgap actually works without needing to try to angle a camera into a tight corner.
Hell… being able to Go To The Zoo on a less popular day? Guess what that costs?
And taht is the fundamental issue. Yes, there will be people who make content and some of it will be genuinely awesome. But there is also a pretty massive ceiling that will basically mean only independently wealthy people have the time and resources to do a “good video”. And… we kind of actually saw that in the early days of youtube where a LOT of the old hats are from rich families or have cash from their startup being bought and so forth.
What peertube (and basically all the youtube alternatives) lack is any way to move on from that.
To reiterate and expand: The life cycle of a successful youtuber (or twitch streamer or whatever) is:
Peertube et al only really exist starting on step 4 (because you can bet most instance owners would strip or hijack those referral links…). And… no company people will want to deal with is going to be sponsoring content that goes to a fraction of the audience that is also predisposed to consider any form of marketing or capitalism a personal insult.
Which basically leaves 5. Which… we are already seeing. linus media group LOVES to pretend Floatplane (which might actually use Peertube under the hood, I forget) is some mega successful business. But he still does youtube content front and center and Floatplane mostly exists for him to profit off a few other youtubers and to encourage his rabid fanbase to give him more money. And there will likely be other creators who decide to “support Peertube” while still primarily making Youtube content. And… they will just crash the ecosystem while getting nerd/FOSS cred.
AbnormalHumanBeing@lemmy.abnormalbeings.space 1 day ago
I think there is some aggression here directed at me that comes from stuff other people in the thread have been throwing at you, so I have some understanding for the aggressive tone, even though I wonder why you are that emotionally invested, or at least, why your language seems to reflect that to that degree at this moment. I don’t think we will be able to change each others’ mind either way. But I feel like I should address at least a few points, where I think your estimations are at least off (again, not completely untrue):
Okay, that at least makes the context more understandable to me. And for the big ones, I still agree. For a lot of others, I think even now publishing on both can make genuine sense, it’s surprisingly cheap, or even free utilising one of the many established instances, to have additional reach with a passionate and growing community. And I do think that with further growth, there is potnential for it to attract more than just people doing it “out of the goodness of their heart.” And I do think it is not doomed to be a “fundamentally un-profitable platform”. Even now, with just a few months running, I have a surprisingly large chunk of costs covered by donations already, which I did not expect.
And people run PeerTube instances for a multitude of reasons. Some financed by donations, some out of pocket, some by non-profits. They get the same out of it, as any of the other big Fediverse instances, sometimes just community and pride, sometimes a genuine side job, some non-profits have employees having it as a main job, too.
Well, it wouldn’t be my ISP, as it’s not my home connection, but my server provider. But, point taken. So far, stress tests haven’t yet produced the risk of what you are describing, to my knowledge. Might happen, might not, you seem to have experience, which I respect. But I also know that experience might not translate to different situations and dynamics properly at times, and I also respect the people in the broader PeerTube community running instances with their own experience also greater than my own not agreeing on that point as unambivalently.
Actually, you misunderstood what I meant here. What I meant was a large content creator just generating a growth in community for an instance, some of which will be supporting the instance on their own, with the content creator maybe also adding donations if they want to. Again, everything I have heard from the community currently active on PeerTube, some of which having been active for Years, indicates costs scale better than your estimate seems to indicate, including, again, from people more experienced than me, and with some exceptional videos already in the 100ks of views.
You kind of did with:
Maybe you did not mean it that way, but claiming “everyone” is a statement that disregards people you claim are not existing in “everyone”. Speaking of disregarding:
I mean, that’s what I mean with, why do you seem so emotionally invested. What are you trying to do? Save us all from investing resources into PeerTube? Just end up “winning” this argument for winning’s sake?
And people passionate about things, which is an important group. E.g. I am living on disability payments that are subsistence level (in a western European country, so it is overall okay, with some general frugality “life hacks” and cutting back on what others may think of as essential), yet I am investing a lot out of pocket into the Fediverse just because that is what I want to do. I am well aware I am not the average person, and not indicative of the vast, vast majority of people, but it is still another type of engaged person for platforms like that at this stage of development, that provide spaces and community already for PeerTube, that others grow within synergetically.
But more broadly, content is not created for PeerTube exclusively at this point of growth anyway, with only very rare exceptions, so almost no one is creating costs just for PeerTube right now. The question is of course - if PeerTube could generate 100ks or even eventually millions of views regularly with additional growth - would it be an attractive platform to put effort into? So, concerning some of the points you made there:
Not what I have seen actually happening with referral links for the channels that publish on both platforms and have them (e.g. Gardiner Bryant), so you speak of hypotheticals here, when there are already situations where this is not happening in this way. And there has been no drama, no flaming comments, no “boycott his instance” calls.
As for your 1 and 2 concerning the life-cycle of content creators, I do agree with it, but don’t think skipping step 2 in itself is completely impossible with a different culture and community. Some things that have helped offset it for the few creators I know of exclusively publishing on PeerTube are things like their already existing Mastodon communities being able to very easily interact with their videos without having to change their favourite medium, as well as:
My experience has been, that this is at least somewhat mitigated by there being an on average greater willingness on the Fediverse in general to support things via donations, again anecdotally, I was surprised that I got some so early on in my “fuck it, I’ll just start hosting Fediverse stuff now out of pocket because I want to and I cut back on other stuff”-journey. At this point, not at all enough to carry anyone, but I never claimed PeerTube is able to that that on its own right now, just that the potential exists, IMO.
Your point is taken, and I agree - I also don’t see anyone professionally publishing on PeerTube as their only platform any time soon, unless they have outside revenue (e.g. I have an art collective publishing their professional content on my instance for independence and conviction reasons, but their main revenue stream is of course their events themselves. Still, there is a degree of additional promotion they get for free for being part of PeerTube instead of just self hosting.)
But you did claim originally that there are no reasons at all for creators to care (which, granted, you did clarify and moved away from a maximalist position), and claimed it being fundamentally un-profitable to publish there without ads. You also suspected the devs being in risk of selling out and just creating this as a prestige project to do so - which is probably one reason you got backlash, because that betrays a lack of understanding for the project and team behind it. And you noted - “any video hosted only on a single ‘instance’ would rapidly cost way too much if it ever became moderately popular.” - moderately popular is a fuzzy term, of course, but so far, this does not at all look to be the case in scaling stress tests and what I have seen of the actually existing infrastructure. E.g. I’ve seen some French videos getting several thousands of views in hours to a few days, running on what is listed as essentially a laptop at someones private home (which is of course the absolute cheapest tier of hardware employed), and those instances have managed to exist at that scale for years, indicating professional servers would scale up pretty well and can punch way above their weight class when compared to centralised services.
And I do think that even just right now, a few dozen to hundreds additional views from passionate people really interested in your content can be a huge boon to small to medium creators, and that is the status quo at the moment, with growing numbers, growing synergies (e.g. PeerTube being easily embedded in lemmy-ui is quite new) and growing projects to address discoverability (e.g. Sepia Search or the PeerTube Picks add-on) and already more professional exceptions going beyond just dozens of views (e.g. the aforementioned heise instance).
You clearly have a lot of professional and personal experience, that I do respect. The overall dynamics you describe are real - but I suspect you might at least lack some experience with the kind of structures that are currently being built in the broader Fediverse, as well as PeerTube in particular, including the use cases PeerTube already has. Case in point for the latter: The many hypotheticals you employ, which are sometimes, but still not always, accurate to what is an already existing community on PeerTube that has existed for years now.