Comment on What exactly is a self-hosted small LLM actually good for (<= 3B)

• CrayonDevourer@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  If I say my name is Doo doo head, in a public park, and someone happens to overhear it - they can do with that information whatever they want. Same thing.

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  • aksdb@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    So, buzzer WRONG.

    Quite arrogant after you just constructed a faulty comparison.

    If I say my name is Doo doo head, in a public park, and someone happens to overhear it - they can do with that information whatever they want. Same thing.

    That’s absolutely not the same thing. Overhearing something that is in the background is fundamentally different from actively recording everything going on in a public space. You film yourself or some performance in a park and someone happens to be in the background? No problem. You build a system to identify everyone in the park and collect recordings of their conversations? Absolutely a problem, depending on the jurisdiction. The intent of the recording(s) and the reasonable expectations of the people recorded are factored in in many jurisdictions, and being in public doesn’t automatically entail consent to being recorded.

    See for example www.freedomforum.org/recording-in-public/

    (And just to clarify: I am not arguing against your explanation of Twitch’s TOS, only against the bad comparison you brought.)

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    • kattfisk@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      You’re both getting side-tracked by this discussion of recording. The recording is likely legal in most places.

      It’s the processing of that unstructured data to extract and store personal information that is problematic. At that point you go from simply recording a conversation of which you are a part, to processing and storing people’s personal data without their knowledge, consent, or expectation.

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      • shnizmuffin@lemmy.inbutts.lol ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

        This was my main thrust.

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      • aksdb@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

        True.

        Although in Germany for example it can also be an issue when recording. If you have a security camera pointed at a public space (that can include the sidewalk infront of your house), passersby can sue you to take it down and potentially get you fined. Even pretending to constantly record such an area can yield that result.

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    • CrayonDevourer@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      You build a system to identify everyone in the park and collect recordings of their conversations? Absolutely a problem, depending on the jurisdiction.

      Literally not. The police use this right now to record your location and time seen using license plates all over the nation - with private corporations providing the service.

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      • tfm@europe.pub ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

        In the US maybe but not in Germany, Austria and probably most countries in Europe.

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  • shnizmuffin@lemmy.inbutts.lol ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    Let’s take a look at the Developer Agreement that you cited:

    You must only retain chat logs as long as necessary for the operation of Your Services or to improve Your Services; do not do so for the purpose of creating public databases or websites, or, in general, to collect information about Twitch’s end users. You must enable, and process, all requests by end users to block, discontinue, delete, or otherwise opt-out of any retention of chat logs for Your Services.

    This very clearly states that you are disallowed from retaining chat logs for the general purpose of collecting information about Twitch’s end users.

    You said that you, “store ‘facts’ about specific users so that they can be referenced quickly,” but then later in a different thread state, “I’m not storing their data. I’m feeding it to an LLM which infers things and storing that data.” You’re retrieving information about specific users at a later time. You’ve built a database of structureless PII from chat logs. You’ve chosen to store the data as inferences, which makes it a bad database, but still a database.

    I have questions:

    When your streamer mentions something deeply personal, like, “how their mothers surgery went,” that your tool helped them remember, do they disclose that your tool was involved in that transaction? When the viewer gets weirded out and asks your streamer to not mention that again, or forget it entirely, do you have a way to remove that information from your database and a way to prove it’s been deleted? When other people in chat think it’s gross, and ask to opt-out, can you even do it?

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    Regarding FrostyTools: I don’t think it’s storing the chat logs for a later time. They don’t have a data retention section in their TOS or Privacy Policy that isn’t related to the streamer. (As in, they hold on to the streamer’s Twitch account and some other information for billing, authentication, etc.) I think it’s taking the chat logs only for as long as it needs to output a response and then deleting it. Also, this excerpt from the FrostyTools TOS made me chuckle:

    This means that you, and not FrostyTools, are entirely responsible for all Content that you upload, post, email, transmit, stream, or otherwise make available via the Service. FrostyTools does not control the Content posted via the Service and, as such, does not guarantee the accuracy, integrity or quality of such Content. You understand that by using the Service, you may be exposed to Content that is offensive, indecent or objectionable. Under no circumstances will FrostyTools be liable in any way for any Content, including, but not limited to, any errors or omissions in any Content, or any loss or damage of any kind incurred as a result of the use of any Content posted, emailed, transmitted, streamed, or otherwise made available via the Service.

    You agree that you must evaluate, and bear all risks associated with, the use of any Content, including any reliance on the accuracy, completeness, or usefulness of such Content. In this regard, you acknowledge that you may not rely on any Content created by the Service or submitted to the Service.

    This leads me to believe that you can violate the Twitch TOS quoted above using FrostyTools. It is apparent that FrostyTools has positioned itself as an application that creates User Generated Content (like Photoshop or Word).

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    • CrayonDevourer@lemmy.world ⁨2⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      You must only retain chat logs as long as necessary for the operation of Your Services or to improve Your Services

      I’m not storing chat logs.

      do not do so for the purpose of creating public databases or websites, or, in general, to collect information about Twitch’s end users.

      Not creating any kind of public database either. It’s a private tool.

      You must enable, and process, all requests by end users to block, discontinue, delete, or otherwise opt-out of any retention of chat logs for Your Services.

      Again - Not storing chat logs. They are processed for information and that information inferred.

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  • catty@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    Doesn’t Twitch own all data that is written and their TOS will state something like you can’t store data yourself locally.

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    • CrayonDevourer@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      I’m not storing their data. I’m feeding it to an LLM which infers things and storing that data.

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      • catty@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

        Was this system vibe coded? I get the feeling it was…

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      • catty@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

        lol. Way to contradict yourself.

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• carl_dungeon@lemmy.world ⁨4⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

  Most US states are single party consent. recordinglaw.com/…/one-party-consent-states/

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  • interdimensionalmeme@lemmy.ml ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

    There is no expectation of privacy in public spaces. Participants to these streams which are open to all do not have a prohibition on repeating what they have heard.

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    • kattfisk@lemmy.dbzer0.com ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      Repeating what they heard is very different from automatically processing the chat to harvest personal information about the participants.

      Just because some data is publicly available doesn’t mean all processing of that data is legal and moral.

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      • interdimensionalmeme@lemmy.ml ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

        It is qualitatively equivalent. Any single piece of information could have been copied, it is safe to assume it has all been copied.

        Although I would be onboard for supporting an expectation of pruvacy in public spaces and making private cctv recording illegal.

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    • carl_dungeon@lemmy.world ⁨3⁩ ⁨days⁩ ago

      Right and what I was saying was even if it wasnt “public”, single party consent means the person recording can be that single party- so still a non-issue.

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